Tomorrow is Not Today

Well, welcome to the Tomorrow Is Not Today podcast. I'm very excited about this podcast. The guest in the studio is, I was introduced to by a previous guest, Mariana, who was amazing. Uh, if you haven't seen that podcast, you need to go back and check it out. And Karina has an amazing, amazing is one word for it.

Uh, but a story that, to me, invokes exactly what the podcast is about, and how it's about the rough stuff in life, the roughest things of life, but can turn around and turn this into helping so many other people, which I am amazed about how you do this. So Karina, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. And can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you're actually out there helping people now?

Ooh, who am I? Uh... We'll start with the hard questions. Um, my name is Karina Goldsworthy. Um, I'm from country South Australia, so [00:04:00] I've only been in Queensland for, oh, about 13 years now. Um, grew up in the country. Um, played a lot of hockey and things like that. Who am I now? My family all lives in South Australia still, so I'm up here, um- Yeah, up here working.

Um, what do I do? It's really hard to explain who I am Interesting question. Who I am. Yeah. We've got you stuck already. Oh, you have. We haven't started yet. I know. Ooh, I'm a mum. Yeah. That's probably a good place to start. Yeah, that's why I'm a mum. I work. Um, I'm building a legacy to make a difference for other people so that if they experience anything that I've been through in my life, I hope it helps them, and that started from a early age, um, from the age of 10 when my dad passed away, and having no support or not knowing what to do and how to navigate loss and grief- Mm

right until [00:05:00] now. So that was a long, long time ago when he passed away. And he had an accident, so it was very sudden. Oh, wow. So I think that journey has shaped me in a way. Um, yeah, and so now I want to change the way people look at grief and trauma and events in their life into a more positive way, rather than looking at the negative all the time.

And you definitely have what it takes to be able to help people in that way, uh, in so many ways, which we're gonna get into, um, in a very... Like you said, a po- I love the way you said that, that you're helping people, and that's your, what your legacy is basically- Mm ... in this specific area, and I love the fact that, like we were talking before we got on here, that you've taken the ugly bits in life, and you've created something positive out of that- Mm

that can help so many people. And I just- Mm ... I love how people can do that, go to their ugliest parts and go, "You know [00:06:00] what? I'm gonna use this to benefit other people." Ooh, I've been through quite a lot of ugly parts in my life. Um- And yet I watch you- ... and since you walked in here you've done nothing but be happy, smiley, laughing- Oh

just a... And you just ooze positivity. Oh, thank you. You do. It's- Be- I think that's because, oh, nothing, nothing rattles me anymore. Doesn't matter the person and event coming forth, there's actually nothing worse than what I've been through. Nothing. So nothing actually phases me. Mm. Starting a new job, meeting someone, it, it doesn't actually matter.

Like, I'm not rattled. Uh, big events like speaking in front of people, um, that doesn't phase me anymore. Last year I spoke in front of 800 people Didn't worry me. I was just... Does- I've been through the hardest things. Mm. Divorce, that wasn't hard [00:07:00] either. It just wasn't hard. Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean?

Like, losing a child, that is the worst. Mm. The worst. So since we're there, take us back. Tell us the story about what exactly happened. So I've got two daughters. Uh, Hannah's my eldest, and my youngest daughter, Sophie. Um, very, very close. Played all the time, played teachers all the time, played dress-ups. If we were in the street, all the kids would come to our home.

They would all play in the pool, they would all play outside, they'd have sleepovers. It was- Mm ... just a really good family home that everyone in the street would love coming over to. And the girls, oh, from the minute they were born, they would have swimming lessons, they would go to music, they would [00:08:00] try different things.

They'd have playgroup. Like, I had them busy from as soon as they were born. And as soon as they could sit up, we had swimming lessons, we had the music, so the little one would be... Someone would hold the little one while the oth- you know, Hannah would be play, or could play with her. So we always did things together, so it was the three of us a lot of the time.

And, um, Sophie was diagnosed with epilepsy from a very young age, um, which from the age of three, which I had to push quite hard for because most kids don't, uh, some, most kids... Some kids have febrile convulsions when they're little. And I was sort of fobbed off as she's just having a convulsion, but something inside me knew it was something more than that, um, from her first convulsion, which is, is pretty scary.

Hannah was there at the time, and Sophie's eyes rolled back in the back of her head. She was foamy at her mouth. She went blue. Mm. She was in the car, so I didn't want to leave her to [00:09:00] go and get the phone to ring an ambulance and leave Hannah as well, 'cause it's quite s- was very scary at the time, and I didn't know what was happening.

Mm. But I did 'cause I needed, I needed help. And it was interesting that event, when that first happened, where your mind goes to. I was actually putting the girls in the car, so I'll go back a bit, putting the girls in the car to go to hockey, to go in the canteen to volunteer. And Sophie had this seizure in the car.

I rang an ambulance, got off the phone to them, and then I rang a friend and said, "Sophie's having some, some sort of medical episode. I can't come to hockey today because I've got to take her to the hospital." So in this moment, she's having a seizure. Hannah had no idea what was going on. Here I am ringing, saying, "Sorry, I can't come in."

Wow. And what my beautiful friend did is come straight to me, and drove straight to me to see what I needed. And the same time, I also rang my cousin and said, "Can you please come and get Hannah? [00:10:00] Sophie's having s- some sort of seizure or something. I need to go to the hospital." Like, I needed her out of that environment.

Mm. And remembering, like, S- Sophie was only three at the time, so Hannah would've been nearly, nearly five. So they're very little and very close in age. As it turns out, they said that it was a febrile convulsion. Um, we didn't go to hockey that day, um, and sent home. Um, I pushed and pushed and went to Adelaide and took Sophie to lots of medical appointments, and she was diagnosed with epilepsy.

And from then she had lots of different seizures, so grand mal seizures, absentee seizures, so where she just blanks out and looks at you, but there's no... That you can't get any response from her. So she would have them at school, she'd have them on the netball court, she'd have them on the hockey field, she would have them at her friend's house.

She had them anywhere. And the one thing that sticks in my mind is when she was taken to hospital multiple times, it w- I was told, "Oh, [00:11:00] it's just a febrile convulsion. She'll be fine. She'll grow out of it." Okay. And then when she was diagnosed with epilepsy, "It's okay, she can't die from it." Okay. So as a mum, I let her do whatever she...

Not whatever she wanted, but they did horse riding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did swimming lessons. They did hockey, they did CrossFit, they did, you know, whatever activities, gymnastics, dancing. Like, they tried every sport possible and did whatever they wanted until, um... Well, they just did. They just... They were in the pool.

As soon as they could swim, they were in the pool, doing back flips off the side of the pool, doing, you know, all the friends were in the pool, pool parties, whatever it was. Sounds like a great childhood. Yeah. Well, you'd think so. Like, yes. Yeah. It was, it was good. I wanted to give them lots of opportunities.

All the opportunities possible. Yeah, absolutely. Different to how I probably had it- Mm ... um, growing up, you know? And to what mum could give us as [00:12:00] well. Like, nothing, nothing against her, but you... It's what you know. Yeah. But I wanted it different for my girls. On this particular day that Sophie had her accident, I'll never forget.

It was a warm, sunny day in Queensland and, um, the girls wanted to go in the pool, and it was a Sunday afternoon, and I needed to go to the supermarket. The worst job in the world, but n- they need food, and they need- ... food for school. So, um, I remember Sophie kept hugging me, and her little arms wrapped around my waist and giving me a hug and saying, "Oh, Mum, I love you."

And I was like, "Oh, I love you, sweetie," and gave her a kiss on the head, and I said, "When I get back, I'll get straight in the pool with you." And they'd been playing teachers that morning, and didn't think anything of it, and their dad was home at the time. And so I helped them put sun cream on, their bathers on, and they were in the pool.

And they had their blow-up unicorn and their blow-up flamingo. So they were set just to be lazing around in the [00:13:00] pool. And I remember going to the supermarket, and I was getting things. And usually when I go, there'll be something I've forgotten, so I thought, "I'll just give them a quick call and see if there's anything they need."

And I rang, and Hannah got out of the pool and answered the phone, and she said... I said, "Oh, do you need anything? I'm at, I'm nearly at the checkout. Is there anything you need?" "No, no, it's fine." "Okay." So I'm putting my groceries through, and then within a minute, the phone call rang. I got a phone call back, and it was Hannah.

And I will never, ever, as long as I live, forget that, that phone call. It was- Oh, it was heart-wrenching. Like she was just beside herself. And I said, "What's happened?" And she said, "I think Sophie's drowned." I was like, "What do you mean?" And she said, "I think Sophie's drowned, Mum." And she was just screaming. [00:14:00] So I, I didn't know what, what to think, to be honest.

She certainly wasn't, she wasn't joking, she was hysterical, and when you've had kids you n- you don't ever wanna hear that- Mm ... scream on the phone. Um, I said, "Okay, hang up from me, you're gonna ring triple zero." So Hannah so bravely rang me, rang triple zero, talked them through everything of what was happening.

Her dad had scooped Sophie out of the pool. Hannah had opened the gate to let him out, 'cause he was obviously holding her. Um, and I rang our neighbors to come and get Hannah, because whatever this situation was happening, she needed to be out of there. Mm. And it took me back to the situation when my dad died, like, I didn't know what was going on, but I needed Hannah to be safe.

I knew my, their dad was home, and he could... He was obviously dealing with Sophie. [00:15:00] And my beautiful neighbours came over and they scooped Hannah up and got the dogs, which was so, so lovely, 'cause I didn't know what was going on. But when I got home... All I remember at the supermarket was saying, "Oh, I'm so sorry."

Like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Here's my groceries." Like, "I, I, I need to come back. My, my, I think my daughter's just drowned." Like, I didn't know what to think. I had no idea what I was, what I was gonna walk into when I got home. What I did walk into though was paramedics in my driveway. Um, and walking in and just seeing, seeing what was happening.

So, you know, CPR was being done on Sophie. My body went into shock. It's interesting how your body just knows and can feel it. Soon as I walked in the home, and I had my neighbour working on Sophie, Sophie's dad was working on her, and then the paramedics came in calmly and, and took [00:16:00] over. And from then, in my mind, I was like, "Oh, sh- she'll be okay.

Like, the paramedics are here. She'll be okay." 'Cause I still didn't know what had happened. Mm. And they, um- They, all they told us is that they're gonna transport her to the hospital. So they took her, stabilized her, took her to the hospital. Oh, I can feel it in my body. Um, and once we got to the hospital, they were then taking her to the Children's Hospital in Brisbane.

So we were in Caloundra, and they were gonna airlift her to the- Mm ... Children's Hospital. So once we're at Caloundra, they stabilized her, and it's interesting what you remember, and any details. So all I remember is, "You need to pack a bag and get down to the hospital." And the one thing they asked me was, "Oh, how much do you weigh?"

And I was like, "Hmm, that's a bit, that's a bit rude." [00:17:00] "Well, what I'd like to weigh and how much I actually weigh are two different things." Like, I started going into that joke thing of- Wow ... you know, that's how I was responding was- Mm. Yeah, it actually wasn't a joke, it's because I actually couldn't... I was too heavy to get on the, into the helicopter because of all the equipment they needed.

So we had to go home, pack a bag, and then drive down to Brisbane, which was an hour. What was I packing for? So what I packed for was one night, 'cause in my mind, she was gonna be okay and she was gonna be coming home. So I thought, "Oh, well, I'll just pack for a night. Okay, she's having a sleepover." So I packed her favorite nightie, which had unicorns and rainbows on it.

I packed her favorite teddy, her favorite blanket, her favorite book, and her iPad in case she wanted to listen to some music or watch a show. And I thought, "Ah, that, that's all we need." I can't even remember if I packed a bag for Hannah or myself. I had no idea. No [00:18:00] idea what I'd packed. But I remember the, the drive down to Brisbane was horrendous.

Mm. It was dead silent. It was, you could hear a pin drop because we, none of us spoke. And I still didn't ask what had actually happened. But at the moment, in that moment, it didn't actually matter what had happened because- Mm ... it's not gonna change. So- Yeah, we got to Brisbane and yeah, w- uh, again, had no idea where to find her.

She was getting helicoptered in. I don't remember them giving me any details or anything like that, where to find her when we got to the hospital. So we found a park and still didn't know where emerg- w- okay, we'll go to emergency, maybe that's where she is. And I remember being that, what felt like a crazy woman running through the doors trying to find my daughter, and probably hysterical or calm.

I, I actually don't remember. I just know that feeling in my body of what it was [00:19:00] like, and just shaking, and I just need to find where she is, and I can feel it in my body now, just the shaking

And then the time lapse, so the, the time was huge for me. We'd already had an hour in the car of getting there, and then, okay, she's landed. They said she'd landed safely. Okay, well, where is she? She was in ICU. Okay, still, I'd never been to ICU before. I'd never been to the children's hospital before. She wasn't sick So whatever was happening, she was still alive in my head Um, and when we walked into that room, it was, it was, it wasn't bright and bubbly.

She was hooked up to lots of machines. Um, we were told, n- not told to ring family, but I did. [00:20:00] So I rang my mum and said, "Sophie's had an accident. Y- I think, I think you need to come up." 'Cause they're in South Australia, so my mum rang my brother, and him and his partner came up. But I didn't know what, what we were, oh, what was gonna happen

I still thought she was gonna come home

And then

And then we were told about the, what had actually happened. They didn't, they didn't know definitely, but she'd had some sort of medical episode in the swimming pool. Um, and whether it was epilepsy or cardiac arrest It wasn't known, and it wasn't known at that point What was, we were told is that she [00:21:00] wasn't responding to any- anything they were doing for her, and that they needed to do brain testing And what that looked like.

So they do a series of tests from two different doctors at two different times, and to how she responded to those tests, and whether we wanted to be present in the room or not be present. So by then, our family had arrived from South Australia, and for me, it was about choice. So if people wanted to stay, it was their choice.

They weren't to speak, because the doctor needed to do what they needed to do, but it was about choice on whether they stayed in the room or not. And I also gave Hannah a choice. So for me, that was really important that she had a choice of staying or leaving the room. So when they did the tests, we stood around Sophie and just waited to see if [00:22:00] she responded, and it's interesting how for me, I'm thinking, "Oh, she moved.

Oh, she's responded to that." You know, it's a pain test or a pinch test to see if she's responding to anything. And then once they'd done the tests, um, the doctor pulled us aside, and Sophie was never left alone in the room, which is, was really important for me. So family were in there, Hannah was in there, or a nurse was always by her side.

But what the doctor then told us is, um, Sophie was actually brain dead

What does that mean? So for me, I, I, I actually didn't comprehend what brain-dead meant

I didn't realise that she wouldn't be coming home. That once we turn those machines off, that there's actually nothing that can [00:23:00] be done So as much as asking those questions of, okay, w- what... And I simply asked, "What else can we do?" Mm. And looking the doctor in the eye saying, and he just said, "There's actually nothing we can do."

We couldn't prolong whatever's happening. Yeah, it was, it wasn't a decision. The decision had been taken. We had no choice. Yeah. And again, it came to choice, which was really, really strong

The next conversation happened quite quickly, and that was with a DonateLife nurse and the doctor present and a social worker, and that was around whether we would donate her organs Which again, we have just been told our daughter is brain [00:24:00] dead, and in the next conversation we're asked to donate her organs.

That's a lot. Yeah. What- It's such a lot ... wh- where, where would you... 'Cause I, I can't comprehend those two things one after the other. Mm. Like, neither, like, do you donate organs? That in itself is a massive question at any time of life. Absolutely. But when it happens there, where does your mind go? What are you thinking at that point?

Once we had that... It's interesting. So once we had, once they told us, it's like, okay, they said, "We'll give you some time to think about it." Okay. So then the three of us had the conversation, Sophie's dad, Hannah, and myself, and that was the interesting part, 'cause for me it was like, well, that's a no-brainer.

There's absolutely nothing that can be done But can you imagine us if we had to sit and wait for someone to give us organs- Mm ... to keep her alive? [00:25:00] So straight away I was like, "I think we should," and we all agreed. So it took about 30 seconds for us to decide that we would. So let me get this clear. You've just been told that your daughter has passed, and then ask, "Can we have your organ, her organs?"

And at that point, you're thinking of saving someone else's life, or numerous other people's lives. Yeah. That's insane. That's insane in a good way. Yeah. So- That's... I don't know if you- ... clicked with that, but to me it's like, that is incredible. I think because the questions I asked this doctor was, "Is there anything else you can do?

Is there anything else?" And he said, [00:26:00] "No." So if there was a little bit of her, any brain activity- Mm ... that would keep her alive, then maybe it would've been a harder decision, but there was zero brain activity. Nothing. So- That's mind-boggling. It, it's a, it's a hard decision. It's a hard decision, but it wasn't.

Yeah. It's a hard decision because we've just lost o- our daughter. In the same decision, we didn't have... We had time, but we didn't, and we can change our mind at any point to donate her organs and tissue. So it's like, okay, well, I would hate to be in that situation. If we now had to sit here and wait for someone else to pass away to keep her alive- Mm

that would be horrible. Horrible So it didn't take long at all. And then the way [00:27:00] it was done and the conversations we had, it was, it was done so respectfully and so beautifully in a way that I will never forget, and the time that we got to spend with Sophie. So then we had, basically were told eight hours.

They find matches, only matches for her organs that we decided to donate, and for a 10-year-old who's fit, healthy, happy, vibrant, funny, loving, who loved rainbows and unicorns and cared- ... and loved for so many people, why wouldn't we? Why- Yeah ... w- why wouldn't we? She, sh- we couldn't do anything with her organs.

She, like, there's nothing that could be done. That, it, to me, that says a lot about you as a person. Mm. Because there was no poor me, there's [00:28:00] no... Obviously, you had a feeling of that, without a doubt, but the, the whole attitude wasn't a poor me thing. It was not a victim thing, but the exact opposite. It, from the very first, when you first found out, you're thinking of other people.

Like, that mentality to me is incredible. Mm. I think it's amazing

If I go into a victim, I might not ever come out So if, and I've been down in the hole, and I call it the pit. I've been there many times- Mm ... before having children. I don't wanna go back down there, and I don't want to parent like that either. I have Hannah. I don't wanna be stuck in that pit for the rest- Mm

of my life. So I had a choice, go back down in the pit, [00:29:00] and who knows where that could've ta- gone, or if I'd be here. Mm-hmm. Or I spin it, and I'm proud of Sophie and the things that she's taught me, how to parent Hannah, how to show her to get through tough things, and she will survive, and she will be okay, and for myself, and to others.

So it can go either way. Mm. And it comes back down to choice, and I will say over and over and over I love that. I love that. And it sounds like the very fact that you had been in a pit more than once before, you knew what it was like, and that's not a place you wanna go, so you're gonna do the opposite to that.

Absolutely. And when no one, I... Not that I had no one to teach me, like, I got professional help and all that sort of thing, but what I needed is [00:30:00] strategies and things like that, and coming up in a small country town, there just is- there isn't the resources there. Mm. And people don't talk about the things that I'd been through, let alone talking about a child that's passed away.

Not many people talk about that stuff. Yeah. It w- like, I had a miscarriage as well, and no one talked about that. So here I am, I've had three pregnancies, and I've got one child alive Not many people talk about that sort of stuff. No. So for me, it was, is teaching and giving Hannah strategies and learning for myself those strategies.

What does that look like? What can I do? To, to get those strategies, is that something you realize within yourself, "I need to do something about this, otherwise I'm gonna be in this place forever, or who knows what's gonna happen"? Or did you have people around you that maybe inspired you, [00:31:00] encouraged you, saw where you were?

No. No? No. I had no one. So how did you get yourself to a point where you made that choice? Uh, I think that choice came from when Sophie was in hospital. You know, I then had to explain to Hannah what had happened to her best friend, her little sister, who she idolized. I then had to organize a funeral for a child.

But what did I want? What did... what could I do? I could give... All I knew was about big birthday parties, 'cause Sophie loved birthday parties. So it was a celebration, so I was gonna celebrate her life. So we had unicorn, massive unicorn cake. We had all her friends, we had balloons. I spoke about stories and funny things.

I read her favorite book. Everyone wrote on her [00:32:00] casket, and then I carried her casket out

If n- I don't want people talking about my child if they don't know her. Mm. I don't want someone else to carry her casket. That, that's my daughter. So I did things that I knew I could control maybe. Mm. I'd lost all control the moment she had her accident. I couldn't control the outcome, I couldn't help, I couldn't fix it

That's the hardest bit as a parent is you wanna fix, you wanna help, you wanna do anything in your power to help your kids. Yeah. And when that's taken away

You can lose all sense of control- Mm ... of yourself as well. Yeah. So I- There's not much that feels worse than that. Ugh. Yeah. It, and I c- I can't help Han- I can't bring [00:33:00] back her sister I can't bring back my daughter. I can't bring back, you know, I slept with Sophie's favorite pajamas for months, and months, and months just to feel it, that smell, that touch.

Mm. That cuddle that she gave me, I didn't have that anymore. And it, what's interesting is going back to the house after her accident is on her whiteboard where she played teachers, 'cause she loved her teachers, she had written in rainbow writing, "Live life peacefully." And I still sit at that desk And how old was she?

She was 10? She was 10. So a 10-year-old writing, "Live life peacefully." Wow. I took a photo and got it tattooed on my back because I was like, I'm gonna live life peacefully, absolutely. I was working from home, and I used to just go in her bedroom and lay on her bed and just cry when Hannah was at school.

'Cause I just... You know, you'd hear a song and that [00:34:00] would trigger me. I'd hear an ambulance, that would trigger me. Anything I, and it was so hard So hard. And what, I had, I didn't know how to cope. I didn't know what to do ... Uh, listening to you, I, I just see brave. Like, who you are, the decisions that you made, what you did.

Mm. Now, I don't know obviously what it was like for you at the time, but hearing that story and the decisions you made and what you did for yourself, but for other people and for your daughter, your other daughter, Hannah. Mm. To me, it's incredibly brave, all of that. But you wouldn't have felt that at the time.

No, because I f- if, if I didn't make the decision, who was gonna make it? Who was gonna help us? Who was gonna help Hannah? Who was gonna help us organize celebration for Sophie? And I didn't [00:35:00] want someone else to tell me how to have it. Mm. I didn't want someone else to tell me what I needed to have for a celebration of life for my daughter.

So again, tho- with those questions and decisions you needed to make, what were, as a mum, what were you feeling doing that? Everything was, what would Sophie want? Yep. How would Sophie feel? Sophie would want all the rainbow colors and all the rainbow balloons and unicorns and cake and everyone to be happy and talk, you know, talk about her funny things she did.

And so I did. Have her favorite things there. Have the things that she'd made. So she was very good at sewing, so all the things that she'd sewn and loved and people around her. And you know, her, her casket had, everyone wrote a message on there. Mm. They had unicorns on it, had rainbows on it, all the things that she [00:36:00] loved as a 10-year-old little girl.

She sounds like such an amazing, fun- Yeah ... life-loving girl. And you know what else? That this 10-year-old girl inspired you for the rest of your life. Mm. And who knows how many other people, not just by her life, but that one simple sentence- That's exactly right ... that she wrote. Mm. That obviously is gonna be, that in itself is gonna be a legacy that lives on.

That's right. And probably not just for you, but for the way that you're out there helping other people now as well. Mm. I still get people sending me pictures of rainbows. People have pictures of unicorns tattooed on them. Wow. I have, Sophie's best friend from South Australia has a tattoo now, and it's lilies, 'cause her name's Lily, and roses, 'cause Sophie's middle name was Rose, and it's a bunch of flowers.

And I [00:37:00] think that just blows my mind. Blows my mind. And then it's people, the love hearts that the kids made from her classroom, they'll fold like origami h- love hearts. People still have them on their fridge- Wow ... from her celebration. And I think, "Wow, that's amazing." So we didn't just have one celebration.

We had one in Queensland, and then we went to South Australia and did it again. Who does that? Yeah. Not many people do that, right? I've put myself through it once- Wow ... and then I do it again. And I carried her ashes through the airport, and then I had to explain what they were. Like, that was soul-crushing.

Mm-hmm. That was hard. That would be an understatement. Mm. That was hard. Wow. So then I guess it's, yeah, the teaching and the learnings of what she taught me of live life [00:38:00] peacefully. Mm. So how has that impacted you now? Oh, I talk about her a lot. Okay. And do thing, lots of things to inspire others and help other people through grief and trauma, whatever that looks like.

So, and I guess it's, it helps me as well to learn about grief and the strategies I've put into place. Mm. Because I don't think I would've been able to get through it. So it's understanding me and understanding grief and what that looks like, and going back down to the hard places, then to come back out.

Mm. Pushing myself harder. So it's quite interesting. So I'll do different events or different things and think, "Oh, what would break me?" Losing a child hasn't broken me, but what would? So I, you know, I tried running. I hate running. I absolutely hate running. So I did like... I tried 10Ks. It took forever, but I still did it, and I was like, "Oh."

You know, tried water-skiing, tried... Oh, [00:39:00] I did a 21K, I did a ultramarathon, I did a couple of ultras, and then I did different events, obstacle events. I was like, "Oh, okay." And then, um, recently I did Base Camp Mount Everest, and that was so interesting. So, you know, I had a few different mentors, Mariana being one beautiful mentor, and I had a fitness coach, and, you know, we'd try different things and nothing would click, like nothing would get me really going.

Um, and Mariana set out a challenge, "Oh, you've got the next 13 weeks. Let's set yourself a challenge." And at the start I was like, "Oh, I might try dancing. Like, that would really... Like, I'm really not good at that, you know. That, that'll do." And then I was like, "Oh, no, it's not hard enough. I'm gonna go to Base Camp."

So 13 weeks out- Shit ... I hadn't had any equipment, no training. I didn't know... I hadn't researched it really. I wanted to go, and thought, "Oh, that might be hard. Like, a lot of people f- I think find that hard. It'd be beautiful there." [00:40:00] Little did I know how hard it was gonna be. So for the next 13 weeks I spoke to my trainer, she, my PT, Kerry, and she got me on a training program, and I did it.

I got to Base Camp, solo. I went... Didn't wanna go in a group. I didn't want anyone to hold me back. What do you mean solo? So it was just me and a guide. Um, and it was so funny. So I had... I didn't know what equipment I needed, so I sort of winged it. But it was really interesting, the lead-up to this Base Camp.

Um, there was an earthquake the night before I left, um, and then going into Lukla, which is the world's worst airport, the flight got canceled 'cause of the weather and they said, "Oh, y- we can go another day." And I was like, "Oh." And they said, "Oh, we can go by helicopter." And I was like, "Oh, no." They said, "Oh, we can go by car."

And I was like, "Oh, okay then." I had no idea what these roads were gonna look like. They're like what you see on TV, the world's worst roads. So the massive drops and [00:41:00] the one-way traffic- Yeah ... and it's muddy and it's not a four-wheel drive and your luggage is strapped to the roof of the car, no seat belts.

It was crazy. What, what were you, like, just- What were you thinking? Yeah, well, that's probably a good question too, actually, but I was gonna be a little bit more polite than that, but- ... maybe. Um, when you're in the car and you're going through this- Mm ... what, what are you thinking at the time as like, are you thinking, "Am I gonna go there?

Are we gonna fall off this cliff?" Are you thinking, "I'm gonna do this no matter what?" What, what's going through your mind at that point? It's interesting, because even when I packed my backpack, that had a certain weight, and I was like, "Oh, I can't, I can't not take this," or, "I can't not..." I'd packed everything-

and I thought, "I'll just carry it myself." Like, "I don't care what you say, I'm gonna take whatever I want." No, it wasn't like that. But I had Sophie's ashes and I had photos of the kids, [00:42:00] and on that track- Mm ... for two days straight, there were three times when I thought I was gonna die. So I took, I was in the front seat, and I took the ashes out and the photos of the kids, and I held on and I thought, "Okay, this is where I go.

This is, this is the end." Three times. I couldn't speak the language and I couldn't tell him anything, but the final time when he was reversing along these dirt tracks, I stopped and I got out and I said, "I cannot do this anymore. If you reverse one more time, I c- I, I can't do it." Like, it was really playing with me.

I thought I was gonna go over the cliff. And I kept quiet for the first two times, but the third time I couldn't. And it was interesting, because that was Sophie's anniversary, that she'd passed. Mm. And my nervous system felt it again. Mm. I was shaking. [00:43:00] I, I had no one to talk to. I had no one to hug. I didn't know these people, and they don't hug in their culture, especially m- men and women.

Like, you don't hug as- Mm. Yeah ... you don't hug. So that was really hard. And then, um, because the weather was so bad, I couldn't speak to Hannah. So the one person that I needed- Oh ... to hear her voice and for her to know I was okay, I couldn't speak to her. And so I was going up the road in the ni- at dark with my phone trying to get some sort of reception, but there wasn't any because of the weather.

So here I am, 3,000 meters above sea level. It's dark. It's windy. The fog comes in, so once the fog set in, like, you get lost, so you, you don't go outside. And it was freezing. So it wasn't, like, the coldest was mi- -18 degrees, so it wasn't that cold, but I'd say it was probably about -10 maybe, around that. Like, it [00:44:00] was freezing.

Mm. So you're, so you're on the other side of the world, in the most dangerous roads on the planet- Yeah ... with people you don't know, and you can't speak their language. Now you sound, now it sounds like I'm crazy. In a terrible car. You can't talk to the daugh- your other daughter, the only person that you really, really, really want to talk to right then, and you're all by yourself.

Mm. Yep. I, I think you've pushed yourself. You wanted to push yourself- Mm ... see what could break you. That's probably pretty good- Mm ... pretty good going there. Yeah, it was tough And, and you obviously got through there. You got... What happened then? I did. I'm intrigued here. It was, it was, it was really interesting, and Sophie's, the, on her anniversary, like I saw a- Oh, that's right.

That too, yeah ... yeah, so I saw a rainbow, and to me that was a, that was my sign. [00:45:00] Okay, I'm gonna be all right. Mm. I c- I can get through this. Wow. And we saw the sign above, like the rainbow above, and then as we kept going up the mountain, we were looking down on a rainbow, and I was like, oh, wow, like- Mm ... you never get to be above a rainbow.

Mm. But for me, it was getting closer and closer to Sophie, so base camp would be the highest point I would get to for now. And I had her little, a little piece of her, a little, some of her ashes, which I carried with me, and all I wanted to do was sprinkle them at the top. So I kept going and pushing myself to get to, to get up there.

My body wasn't sore. My heart was getting really sore, my chest- Mm ... and my head, like I was, I was getting altitude sickness from there. Probably leading up to that as well, looking back now, I was really sick. Mm. Really sick, [00:46:00] but just kept pushing. And I think it's the power of your mind just kept going and going.

I wasn't letting anything stop me. So you, you'd decided you're going there no matter what. You're going to base camp- Absolutely ... and you're gonna spread the ashes. Yeah. And that was- That was it. Okay. Yeah. And my, my guide kept checking in. "Are you okay?" "Yeah, good. Good. I think I'll just take two Panadol."

He's like, "Oh, no, no." So I thought by taking Diamox, which helps with altitude sickness, and taking Panadol regularly, that would help. Um, that would help. But he wouldn't let me because obviously that would mask any signs of altitude sickness if I got really sick. Mm. So I didn't take it, I just kept pushing through.

But I got really, really sick. I got beautiful photos. Like I c- I went through so many fears getting there. Mm. Like massive fear of heights, massive fear of heights, and wonky bridges, and [00:47:00] I thought there was just one. So when we got to the first one, this is quite... Well, I laugh about it now. At the time- ... it wasn't really funny.

So I got to the first bridge and I was like, took the f- Sophie's ashes out. Okay, I can do this. Photos of the girls. Yep, okay, I can do this. Put my favorite lipstick on. If I'm gonna go down, I've got red lipstick on. Like I'll be fine. Um- Put my favorite perfume on. Like, okay, I'm gonna smell good, I'm gonna look good.

I've got the kids. Like, I'll be fine with this, getting across this bridge. And little did I know, I, we started going across and the wind was horrendous, 'cause the weather was bad. And as we got across, I started shrinking down. I was starting to have a pan- panic attack halfway across this bridge, and it was swaying.

I was like, "Oh, I don't think I can do this." Like it was, I can feel, like it was choking me, like I was taking my breath away. And I started shrinking, and the guy was like, "You okay?" "Yeah. Like I'll be okay." Uh, I wasn't. I wasn't okay. And then as I was crouching down and I [00:48:00] s- you know, I'm trying to take photos at the same time as not looking down, just look ahead.

Wow. But then once I got across the other side, I was cheering for myself that I actually made it- Mm ... and I was safe, and laughing. And he was like, "Oh, we've only got eight to go." And I was like, "What? Eight to go? Eight more times of feeling like I, feeling like this?" And I, and not that I didn't think like, "Oh, I can't do this," it was just like, oh, all my energy.

Mm. This has just absolutely taken my breath away, and now I need to do it eight more times? So the next time we came across it, my guide thankfully said, "I'll go first, and you just hold the pole." So I held my, my hiking pole. He did the camera thing for me, so at least I wouldn't miss out, and all I had to do was focus on holding the pole to get across.

I was like, okay. So we did that. And I cheered every time I got across, and it was loud. It wasn't quiet. It was [00:49:00] like echoed through the mountains. So I did that the first four times, and then I said, "I can do this now." Like, I'm gonna do it the last four, not thinking that I actually need to come back and do it again, but it was just getting there.

Yeah, yeah. So I did it. The last four I did it by myself, and I cheered and I squealed and I, everyone knew about it around me. Wow. Mind you, we did stop the bridges because yaks were coming across, and so I made sure all the yaks, I wasn't gonna pass a yak on the way, 'cause they might just bolt me off the side.

Like, I didn't know what would happen. And they had gas bottles on them, so I was so nervous about being squashed by a yak on a bridge. Mm-hmm. All I could picture was this bridge breaking, and here I am going down with big yaks- ... full of gas bottles. And like it was just horrendous. Oh, geez. Um, but ki- little kids on their way to school were running across them like they had no fear.

Wow. And then that, that reminded me, yeah, it's childlike. It's just a bridge. Mm. It's just a bridge.[00:50:00]

The more you did this, the more comfortable you got. You'd overcome something, show your way out it. And I think this is a, maybe slightly off topic, but I love this fact that you did something that you, ridiculously uncomfortable to the point of panic attacks. Mm. And like you said, when you do that, when that happens, you, your body, everything is totally exhausted.

Um, but once you've did it, you're just that little bit higher. That's right. And just a l- a little bit higher. Yep. And that, I think, is one of the most important things any of us can ever learn. Yeah. And sometimes with, or with altitude sickness, they say, "Oh, then you go back. So you'll come back down." I was like, "Ugh, I'm not going back across these bridges."

It's a one-way and then back across to get home. Mm. We're not doing this up and back thing. Like, that just didn't sit well with my head at all. No. It's one way, and we're just gonna go slowly, really slowly. But then you start to notice things. I got [00:51:00] to grieve. I got to cry. I noticed the butterflies. On the way- On the way

or once you were up there? No. On the way. On the way. Because I was, it was peaceful. It was quiet. It was just me. I could hear the wind in the trees. I could notice the f- the smell of that fresh air. It was, it was different. I had ch- I was changing. And it was interesting seeing the water and the rapids. I said to the guide, "Oh, can I go and wash my face in there or f- touch?"

And he's like, "Oh, no. Like, no one touches this water." I was like, "Hmm. Oh, I won't be long." Like, you know. He said, "Oh, it's freezing." I said, "That's okay. I'll just have a hot shower." There's no hot showers, did I not know, on this trek. Like, there's no hot showers. I wasn't gonna warm up. And no one went in the water.

Mm. That's sacred water, and here I am wanting to flounder around in cold water. I do ice baths. It's not like that at all. These are sacred waters that need to be respected, and here I am, from [00:52:00] Australia, wanting to- Mm ... have a little play in the water. I did. I just touched it, just to feel the pure, I needed to feel grounded.

The pure water. Mm. The earth. And just come back to it was very much in my body, the mindfulness, and just respecting how far I'd come. Mm. Grieving and thinking about Sophie, thinking about Hannah, and the two people that mean the absolute most to me, and what that, what that actually means. If you hadn't gone on this trek Do you think the grieving process would've been as maybe, uh, can s- can I say, I'm not sure how to word this, to be totally honest.

Would it have been so, as quick, maybe as deep to get you past it? I'm not sure if I've worded that well or not. I understand what you mean, yeah. [00:53:00] So this was Sophie's ninth anniversary, so for nine years I hadn't grieved. I haven't sat, I hadn't processed. All I'd done, I felt, is support everyone else Also, going back to my dad and everything else that's happened in my life, I hadn't had time or space to process that Oh, and your dad's- My dad's passed

death as well. Yeah. Wow. Wow So that happened when I was 10. Yeah. So this trip to base camp, like you said, it totally... And was that a gradual change that you noticed or was it pretty much a- No, it was gradual. Gradual. Gradual. Each step, each 100 meters, each temple I went to. And I went i- I remember going into a monastery, and it was just me and the monk in there, and it [00:54:00] was eerily silent.

Mm. And you, all the candles were lit, and he was just sitting there. Um, there was no chanting or anything in there. It was just me and him, and it was just quiet. And I went in, took a breath, and I burst into tears. Burst into tears, and I was like, "Oh, Corina, like, what's going on here?" But it, it- I could f- I could feel that shift, and I s- I'm not particularly religious, but I did say a prayer for the girls, lit a candle for each of them.

Spent some time in there, and then kept walking. And again, it was that little shift each time i- something significant happened along the trek. And then when I got to base camp, so you sleep, and then the next day it's another eight hours to get to base camp, and then you come back down again. So I went at a time where they hadn't set up all the tents, so they, at base camp is where they set the tents up for people to summit.

Mm-hmm. And you, [00:55:00] that's where you go up and you come down again, or it's too much and you go up and d- all this up and down stuff. I was like, "Ugh, I'm not gonna do it." So we had, the day we decided to go, like I was pretty sick. I could feel like I was getting really short of breath, and so even to get, oh, say here to there, like a tree, I'd say, "Okay, I'll just get to the tree and then I'll have a break."

I'd get to the tree, but I'd probably stop three times, and it's probably only 10 meters. I'd be like, "Whoa, I'm... Oh, didn't think I was that out of shape." I trained a bit, but not heaps. But it was actually really quite hard to breathe, like it was- Mm ... taking my breath away. There were points where it was so cold, like it's -18, and I could not warm up.

And I broke down a couple of times, and I was just crying. Not the fact that I couldn't do it, but I was just so cold. Like this was freezing. Mm. And I could not feel my fingers, I could not feel my toes, I couldn't feel my face. I wore a buff, I had beanies, I had [00:56:00] all the jackets on, everything, but I, I couldn't feel anything.

And that loss of the feeling, that's what was hurting. Mm. Because you, you wanna feel something. You wanna feel pain or you wanna feel something. I felt pain for such a long time in my ch- heart. Yeah But that loss of that feeling of pain was, that was difficult Loss of feeling physically or- Physically Okay And the mental, because it felt like my brain, like my brain was actually swelling.

My heart was swelling Yeah That is the edema, that is the hypoxic... My body was getting hypoxic Right So I was really sick. Was it gonna stop me? No. Was I gonna let on to my guide how sick I was? No. Was it dangerous? Yes, in hindsight. Why? But I got to base camp the next day, and my legs, like I was wobbly, like my poles were bent, 'cause I was [00:57:00] using the last couple of days using that to keep me upright, 'cause I just, I had no comprehension which way was left, which was right, where to go.

Couldn't follow a track cognitively, couldn't understand anything, couldn't read, so I was losing my sight. So the day before I'd lost my sight. I couldn't work out how to charge my phone, if I could even buy Wi-Fi to charge anything. All I needed was enough just to take some photos. But getting to base camp is surreal.

Absolutely surreal. And just sitting there. And it's interesting because a lot of people would come and go, and I was like, "Oh, I'm not going." Like, most people probably spend five to 10 minutes and then they go. I was like, "Mm-mm. I have walked way too long to only spend that amount of time here. And I haven't done what I'm here to do," and that was to spread Sophie's ashes.

So once I think I sat down, I was like, "I'll just catch my breath." I [00:58:00] wasn't catching my breath because I didn't have much oxygen. Looking back now, I laugh. And then when I saw myself in a mirror, my face was so puffed up, I was like, "Oof." I looked horrendous. Wow. Not that it was about the looks, but I just covered myself up with everything, with beanies and, you know.

Yeah. But yeah, looking back was quite funny. And I sat there and just thought about Sophie, sprinkled her ashes, and with that I had my Donate Life beanie. I had the flags on my back, Donate Life, so people knew that I was there for something. Mm. I wanted others to know. And it was interesting. So when Sophie passed away, we donated her organs and tissue, and she went on to save at least 10 other people.

Wow. And I say 10 others, 'cause her heart tissue was used to patch up holes in other people's hearts. So along this journey for, to base camp, [00:59:00] other people from other places around the world were pulling out their donor cards and showing me that that's what they do. So it was really raising awareness a- about organ and tissue donation, which was lovely.

And they would show me, thinking, um, just, just showing me what they do, which was really, really... So it was powerful. Yeah. So then I would explain why I was doing it and I could talk about Sophie. So that was a part of it, was about sharing about Sophie, Donate Life, and how meaningful it was. Was that part of the healing process for you, getting to that point where you'd gone through all of that for yourself, but obviously also for Sophie in that degree as well, but then being able to share that and what you're doing and why?

Absolutely. To people around the world. Mm. So I could share my story about Sophie. Mm. And then people that I'd meet in a tea house, I'd have a, it's a bright magenta pink beanie. You couldn't miss it. So I figured if I was [01:00:00] gonna go off this mountain at any point, they'd at least know Donate Life Australia.

Like, bright magenta. You couldn't miss me. And I had the pink flags on my backpack and that was me. Bright red or pink lipstick like it's

Oh, geez. So even up there, there's a sense of humor going on. Oh, I had to. Yeah, and then in, um, then to be so ill and in, but to be able to share that story of what that felt like was huge. Mm. I can feel it in my body now. It's, um, it was huge, and then to be able to talk about it with the Donate Life team, and I still do now, and I spoke, um, at their community forum last year, which was amazing, in front of 800 people.

Wow. From that, um, Woman's Day approached me to do a two-page story- Wow ... which was beautiful. Originally, it was just gonna be a one little column, and a two-page story about my Sophie- That's- ... about what [01:01:00] I do. That's a lot, two pages. It was beautiful. Wow. It was beautiful, and again, it's just raising awareness about grief, trauma.

You can work through this. Yes, yes. Say that again. In more depth. The grief and the trauma, you can come out the other side. What does that look like? It's different for everyone. It takes, it can take years, and it's like a, like a wave. There's good days, and there's bad days, really bad days, and going through base camp was some of those bad days.

Getting, getting there, that was a good day. Spending fi- getting airlifted off the mountain and spending five nights in hospital, in an international hospital, didn't speak the language, that was scary. Being told that, you know, they weren't sure what was happening, if I could get flown back to Australia, that was scary being alone in that hospital.

Mm. But then to hear Hannah and what she did, again, [01:02:00] stepping up, to contact me, to get hold of me, not knowing what had happened, hadn't heard from me for a few days. Unbel- oh, it makes me tear up. You've obviously raised her very, very well.

Not knowing if I'd hear her voice again. But she's... I couldn't receive my phone to ring her. I couldn't see the numbers. I couldn't even charge it, 'cause I couldn't work out c- I could not work out how to do it. But for her to step up again Amazing Amazing

She's already been through so much And now here she is coming through for you- Yeah ... as well. I don't want her to rely on me or save me. That's not her job. I'm her mum. [01:03:00] But as a mum, you've obviously input this into her, which is amazing. Yeah, it's... She's amazing, and I don't think some- sometimes she doesn't realize how amazing she is.

Yep. I would have no doubt about that. And to be able to teach her or speak to schools like I do, or speak to doctors and nurses and explain to them what they do and the impact they have. Mm. You know, when Sophie's went and had her operation for her organs and tissue, the way she came back to us, oh, she just looked peacefully laying there, and they put beautiful pink sheets and flowery sheets around her, tucked into bed, all cozy.

Mm. Her hair was braided, her teddy, her favorite nightie. Those little things are the things that matter. How beautiful she was coming back to me. [01:04:00] I'll never forget that And the things Hannah's done, I will never forget that. Her ringing triple zero for her sister. When she was what, five? Almost five. No, Hannah was older, so she was, um, 12.

Oh, sorry, yeah, yeah. Hannah was 12. Yeah. Sophie was 10. That, that takes bravery. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. To ring triple O and tell them what's happening to her little sister Huge. And now to teach her, I feel I'm the only one that can teach her how to move through this- Mm ... what to do. If I don't teach her, who's gonna teach her?

How can I teach others? How can I help other people? So I mentor bereaved parents now through the Children's Hospital Queensland, and teach other parents how to help their children. Let [01:05:00] mums talk about what's, what they're going through. Mm. How do they go back to work? How do they parent their kids? Not tell them how to, but teach them what I've done that might help them.

I think it's really important. You, and there's certainly a place for professional help, but the first thing I was told was, "Oh, I'm so sorry for your loss. I, I can't imagine." Well, no, you can't imagine- Mm ... 'cause you haven't been through it. But what are some strategies? "Oh, we don't really know." I needed strategies, not just someone to talk to.

To me, it was the strategies that were important. How do I look after myself? How do I get out of bed when I absolutely can't? When I'm in the pit, I don't wanna get out of bed. I certainly don't wanna go to work. How do I show up for Hannah? How do I get Hannah to school and then go back to bed, but then get out of bed?

When all you wanna do is just, [01:06:00] you don't want to I've got no energy for anyone or anything else So these are some of the, the dark days that you talked about? Absolutely. So what do you do? What do I do? Like, getting through those times, when you were there. Oh, and that happens. They're not as dark anymore.

Yeah. But they certainly were there. Because there will be people listening- Mm ... and watching. Mm. And I know there are. Mm. What did you do? What, what strategies are there that these people can grab a hold of and do? I think some days it is just focusing on one thing, getting out of bed. Just have a shower and then go back to bed.

Then the next day it might be actually getting out of bed and having a cup of tea or at least eating something. 'Cause you can go days without eating and just lay in bed. [01:07:00] Little, tiny... You have to chunk it right, right down. Sometimes it's half an hour, like every 30 minutes just to take a breath, slow it down.

Try not to over... You know, you start catastrophizing things, overthinking things. What if this? Mm. What if I did this? What if I was home that day? What if I could have done something for Sophie? What horrible thoughts Survival guilt Yeah Mother guilt. What if I, what if I was there? What could have I done to help her?

Was she taking her medication? Yes, she was taking her medication. There were times when she was younger and she wasn't taking medica- and this is her spunk, right? So we moved town and we pulled the fridge out, and underneath, I kid you not, there were hundreds of her tablets that she hadn't taken. And the little bugger had put them under the fridge to hide them.[01:08:00]

I had no idea Oh, gee. And I, we laughed about it, 'cause we're like, "Sophie, what is this?" And she just giggled. She thought it was hilarious. Oh, God. So you laugh, but, you know, she goes, "I don't wanna take it." Well, clearly you don't- ... because there's all these tablets there. So then it came back to monitoring and making sure she took them.

But, you know, was she taking medication? Yes. She actually hadn't had an epileptic seizure when she had her accident for two years. Wow. So why did she have an e- a seizure, potentially, or cardiac arrest on that day, in that timeframe, the 40 seconds, 50 seconds that Hannah wasn't in that pool? Mm. What happened?

It was an accident. I have no one to blame. There's no one to blame. In an accident or something, you wanna blame someone, so there's, looking after yourself, we're always looking for blame for [01:09:00] something. Mm. I can't blame anyone. There's no one to blame. I tried blaming myself. That's not gonna help. I wasn't act- Doesn't help the situation.

Mm. I couldn't blame the doctor for helping her. There's nothing. There's no one. Could I blame the pool? No, 'cause she didn't hit her head or anything, so I was gonna blame that. That was the first thing I was gonna blame, is she's hit her head, I'm gonna cement the thing in. Or c- blame myself and punish myself for the rest of my life for going to the supermarket, doing something that needed...

we do every week. That's not gonna be helpful. So my darkest days is coming back to the things I can control. I can control getting out of bed. I can control having a shower. Somebody who is listening And they have the guilt Mm ... [01:10:00] either themselves or, and, and like you said, we always look for something, somebody, anything to blame, 'cause we, there's gotta be something.

Mm. What will you say to them?

I think we need to lift that guilt on ourselves. How do you do that? How do I lift the guilt? In our situation, there is no one to blame. I can't... I don't blame Sophie. I don't blame doctors. I don't blame anyone. It's an accident, and that's, it- I'm calling it for what it is. Mm. It was an accident. If there was someone or something to blame, how would I grieve or process that differently?

I think, again, it would come back to what I can control and what I can't control. So for, for instance, my, my dad passed away in a car accident. [01:11:00] What do I blame there? The wet road? The tree that he hit? It's out of our control. I, I, I f- I cannot control everything, so I let go of that control, and I've worked through that and I've done the work on myself to work through that, and now that's what I teach as well.

Mm. How that works, any piece of grief that I've gone through, I've worked through that. I worked through that and now started businesses and, you know, the Sophie Effect, the effect that she's left on me and others, and teaching Which I wanna get to in a sec. Yeah. But just before we go there, um- I didn't answer your question?

No, no, you did. No. I, I... There's one other point that I wanna, wanna cover off on, which you have done so well, and I just wanna see if I can summarize it. Okay. That when you're in that place and you just [01:12:00] wanna- Die? Yeah. To me- A bit. Yeah ... to me, I take it up one level- Okay ... where it's like, okay, the world, Earth's spinning.

I wanna jump off- Yep ... for a while, and then jump back on when I'm happy again. That's, that's was my analogy for how I wanted to be. Okay. I didn't want to die, but I, I just, I wanted to jump off. Oh. I don't wanna be here. I get it. Yeah. It's just come to me. And then can everything else just get better again, and then I can come back.

Hmm. That, that was how I viewed it. Oh. Although there were some other ideas at times. Yeah. Um, but so what, what do you do? Is it, is it a matter of going, "I'm gonna do one positive thing for me today, or one positive thing, e.g. get up, have a shower. And if it's just one little thing that I do, then I'm doing good."

I think that other thing, and this takes me straight back to base camp, I [01:13:00] could've easily, easily jumped off one of those mountains- Hmm ... if I was in a dark place, easily. I could've kept pushing my body up that mountain- But I didn't. What I did practice every single day was noticing the things I could...

were around me. The butterfly, the smell of the fresh air, the taste of the food, of how good, don't laugh, potatoes are gonna taste. Sorry. Fried potatoes. Like you've never had fried potatoes. We sold on them like this. How good they're gonna taste. Yeah. At that point, I could feel my fingers, so it's coming back to the, your senses and what you can feel, taste, see.

Beautiful mountains I could see. I'll take a photo. The butterflies. The wind, I can hear it, I can feel it, that mountain air, the smell. But isn't it interesting when I fall apart is when I [01:14:00] can't feel or can't see. So when I couldn't see- Mm ... when I couldn't feel my fingers, my face, my feet, that scared me.

That scared me. Where was, where was I going? I couldn't f- I was losing control, right? But what can, you can control is getting up, having a shower, noticing things. Almost like- Tasting the water ... appreciation and perspective. Absolutely. Mm. Those little things that you can control So now I can feel it in my, my body's shaking 'cause of what I've been talking about.

Yeah. I can f- taste that water's gonna taste really refreshing soon- ... when I take a sip. Go for it. It's nice. It's good temperature in here. We're engaging with a con- great conversation. Like, they're the things that I can control. Can I control my nervous system? No. [01:15:00] I can feel it and I know it'll be okay when I just relax a bit, but it's the bringing up those, it, my body's remembering those emotions and what that feels like.

Mm. My nervous system going back into those events when Sophie had her accident, being in hospital. When I go back to the Children's Hospital and speak or I'm s- I, I have spoken to their board before, driving there, those feelings come up. Mm. Finding a park, I get all sweaty. Like, those feelings in my body come up.

I don't cry anymore. I'm not a bawling mess like I was when I first used to go back. That was 10 years ago, and those feelings will still come up. I hear a song now that we played at Sophie's celebration of her life, I'm not a bawling mess. I hear them and I go, "Oh, Soph." Feels like she's just here. Mm. Wow.

It's [01:16:00] those things. Or have a singalong wherever I am, I don't care. I will just start singing. And I don't care who's around me. You're gonna hear the words that I just think the w- words are right, but whether they are or not, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, there's no, there's no fear around that.

There's no shame. There's no... I don't feel that. The things I can control, and that's where I encourage other people, when you're feeling like that, we feel in those moments, those dark times, they're only gonna be for a short period of time. Mm. They're not gonna last forever. That feeling of being in that pit of grief will not last forever.

I miss her every day, but that consistency of feeling that really deep, gut-wrenching grief and missing her, it won't last forever. Mm. And that feeling like you wanna jump off something, that doesn't last [01:17:00] forever either. Mind you, when I did go to base camp, I didn't feel, like I never had those tendencies to jump off.

The m- things pro- the way I process things is, "Oh, it'd be easy for someone to do that." There's no railings. Mm. There's no nothing. So if I was feeling like that, suicidal, let's call it for what it is, suicide ideation, I've been there before, previous to having children. Absolutely, I've had, been there many times.

Tried many times. But coming back to the things I can control or cha- and then changing the way I think about it Takes a lot Mm. That's powerful And, and consistency of practicing that, not just, "Oh, yeah, no, I'm over it now." It's not like that at all, don't get me wrong. It comes up, and then it passes, but it gets easier the more I'm training.

It's like training, brain training Mm [01:18:00] "Okay, I'm, I'm f- I can sit in this chair. I'm breathing. I'm okay. I've got my sight, great." Mm. "I'm not gonna fall off a cliff, great" You can feel your fingers and toes. Yeah, can feel them. Yeah. It's more scary when I can't feel them or can't breathe properly. That was scary.

Mm. Really scary. It felt my head was gonna explode. That, what you just said the last five minutes was so incredibly powerful. I, I think, 'cause we all have good days and bad days- Yeah ... and obviously, going through scenarios like that is gonna make that- I'll try this one ... that down deeper. Yeah, okay. You, you deserve it, um, more than, more than ever, but I think you've just given some incredibly practical how-tos on what to do no matter where we are, what's happening, and what's going on.

Um, so thank you for that. A- tell me a little bit more, we're, we're getting... I- I've just been enthralled here, so I haven't been watching the [01:19:00] clock, which I probably should have. But anyway, um, tell me a little bit more about more Sophie's... Oh, what was it? The Sophie Effect. The Sophie Effect, that's what it is.

Yeah. Sorry, yes. Tell me more about that. Oh, I love it. We- You do. I do. You do. This is you. It lights me up. This is you. 'Cause I get to share, so I've been, um... Oh, the Sophie Effect. I get to talk about, we started, I started it because when Sophie passed away, um, was in the March, and she'd just started in a new class that year, and her teacher was beautiful.

The class was beautiful, and the kids, I felt, had nothing, like, they had nothing. They'd heard about an accident. They heard about Sophie passing away, but can you imagine being a 10-year-old or 11-year-old and then not, not knowing how to process that? Mm. What that actually felt like? For me, it was important that they saw me, could understand I'm, I'm okay, Hannah's okay, we're okay, [01:20:00] and have you got any questions?

'Cause for some kids, they might not ever have anyone lose a friend, lose a family member, lose a dog, like, grandparents. You don't know. So I started to develop a program for kids around that age that had lost something or were going through hard times, whatever that looked like. It didn't actually matter what the event was, but how do they process that?

So along came The Sophie Effect, so I developed a program that went for five years at the school. Not necessarily, it was for her class. Unfortunately, I wasn't allowed back in the classroom to show the kids that I was okay, but through the teacher, I explained to her and caught up with her, and am still friends with her- Mm I'm okay.

I'm doing okay. 'Cause that was really important. I didn't wanna collect Sophie's things from the classroom after her accident. I wanted to wait till the end of the year when everyone else was collecting their things from the class. That was really important for me. Um, [01:21:00] and it was important that those kids that were left in her classroom, or her friends from South Australia under- understood, or if they had questions, I can answer them and help them through that.

'Cause that's hard. Mm. 'Cause I know what it's like. When my dad passed away, I had questions unanswered. So for Hannah, it was also about, you know, we now teach other people what this looks like. So we did that, and then also Sophie's class down in South Australia, we have a, um, memorial, not a trophy, but it's a gift voucher that we give out to students, um, that are really trying hard.

Oh, wow. Not the best kid in the class, not the- Mm ... you know. It's just for trying their absolute best. So we do that through Glenburnie School. We also have, um- So this is something you've- Yeah ... created as part of the Sophie Effect? Yeah. That is so cool. And then also through the hockey club that I played a long time, many years, um, through Wests Hockey Club, um, [01:22:00] it's the same, it's the same sort of under 12, not the best and fairest, but someone who tries really hard every week.

Mm. Just their best. Just their, it doesn't matter what they're going through, they just turn up. Because that's what Sophie did. She just turned up. She didn't need to be the best, she wasn't the worst at anything, but she would try so hard at everything she did. Everything. So to me, it's about sharing her journey, sharing through Donate Life, and having that conversation with families, those tough conversations about organ and tissue donation with your kids- Mm

and sharing what type of person Sophie was. That's really important. And also teaching parents how that conversation, what that looks like as well. The tough conversations that we don't have with our kids when they're young. Yes. 'Cause we certainly didn't have that conversation with the girls about organ and tissue donation.

No, I don't think it's a very common- [01:23:00] No ... conversation at all. No But then also, and now teaching adults and strategies and things like that through the Ascendancy Collective. So now we've just started that, so that's another little- Wow ... side, side part. There's no, there's no stopping you, is there ? No. Like, I, I-

I, I said the word brave before. Another word that, um, comes through is resilience. Thank you. Big time. Like, just the whole Basecamp episode, that in itself is the epitome of, uh, resilience. Mm. I'm not sure if you've read the book by, um, can't remember her first name now, Duckworth, uh, called Grit. No, I haven't.

Um, but yeah, she was a, uh, professor and, um, and she's r- r- in- did studied, uh, resilience. Mm. The book's called Grit. Interesting. It's a brilliant book, but you, what you've been describing is a lot of the [01:24:00] things that's actually she points out in this book. Oh. It's quite amazing. But now, but you going on now and talking about all these things, the way that you're helping people and creating different things to- Mm

encourage people and, and help them through their scenarios. Mm. It's phenomenal. The next thing is a book. Awesome. So I'm taking some time out this year to write, and that will be to help other families and what that looks like, because I think that's really important, and some people can listen, they can watch, or they can read.

Mm. And so sometimes it is holding something to read. Mm, when Sophie passed away, there wasn't a lot of things out. There's not books out there about grief or what that looks like. Yeah. Also from Hannah's point of view, I'm encouraging her to write something as well, 'cause I think that would be super powerful.

It would be, because as a sister, then y- she's gonna have a completely different perspective and, and idea of what do I do? How do I get through this? Mm. And that, that's incredibly important. Mm. I [01:25:00] remember speaking, um, I spoke to the Sunshine Coast Lightning netball team last year. And I was like, "Oh, yeah, I can come and speak."

I wasn't sure which part they wanted to hear, but I told them, and it was really interesting watching professional netball team sit there, and then you could hear a pin drop. Mm. And then the floodgates opened, and I wasn't sure which part of the story it was. And it was interesting. It was about Hannah, is the questions they asked about, "How is Hannah now?"

They said they can't imagine as a mum, because they weren't mums, but then obviously the coaching team were mums. So they, they shared about their personal experiences and how they felt, which was beautiful. Mm. But then also they've got s- you know, they're sisters, the netball team. They- they're sisters or they know someone, or they s- got siblings, whatever that looks like, and how they felt.

And now to take that onto a [01:26:00] netball court and to level up and what that looks like, that's where the resilience- Yeah ... comes. So yeah. I can go to work every day, and I work in emergency department. Do you know how hard that is to work in emergency department? It's so triggering Why do I put myself in through it?

I don't know. But what I do know is when a parent comes flying through that door and something's happened, I know how to support them. Mm. I know exactly what they need and what comfort they need. I can't medically help them, but I can support them in other ways, and that's why I help. I, I enjoy it To be able to help someone else.

Wow. So you've got the Ascendancy, is it Ascendancy Project? Collective, yeah. Col- Ascendancy Collective. Yeah. The Sophie Effect. And what else are you doing at the moment? Uh- Besides, obviously, you, you're holding down a job as well. Uh, write, yeah, about to, um, write a [01:27:00] book. And writing a book. Yeah. And this is all helping people- Mm

through this, the grief, the loss- Mm ... whether it's the parents, the siblings- Mm ... or just encouraging kids to do the best and be their best, because that's what Sophie always- Absolutely ... did. A, a major part is speaking at the Children's Hospital. Oh, y- okay. So a part of their patient, um, safety team. Yeah. And as a consumer, so now I do a lot as a consumer at the Children's Hospital, and sharing what- What does that mean?

So from a parent's point of view, what parents are looking for. Right. So my experience- Yeah ... yes, it was the worst experience, as in my daughter passing away, but also I can now guide them on what it could look like for other parents coming into the hospital. Mm, okay. And what that would look like, and for bereaved parents, and mentoring bereaved parents.

I think it's really important. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Mm. So if [01:28:00] people... You're available for counseling and that sort of thing. I don't counsel. You don't do counseling? No, I'm not a counselor. So if people wanna get help- Yeah ... what do they do? They contact you? Absolutely, they can reach out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

What's the best way to get in touch with you? Probably through socials. Yep. Yeah. So through that. Um, yeah, and I'm happy to chat to people, or, and if I'm not, I'm not a trained professional, but happy to guide people- To that ... to that. That's awesome. Because I can help them through the, most of the process, or if they want strategies, or they want support, or the next step- Yeah

or what that looks like from a professional point of view, no, that, that's a little bit different to me. Yeah. But as a mom, absolutely. Yeah. And I do do, I do coaching and mentoring, absolutely, in strategies, not just sitting listening. Yeah, yeah. For me, that's really important. Perfect. And I think quite often that's what people need- Mm

because it is, like you said before, it's [01:29:00] just pushing forward, moving forward. What strategy, what can I do just to move forward- Mm ... and keep going? Mm. And accountability. Yeah. Yes. Supportive, loving accountability. Yes. That helps. This is where, wrapping up here, I always ask a question at the end. Yeah. Is this a scary one?

Yes, well, you know, well, depends how you look at it. Um, for you, I don't think it will be. Um, how do you create the life you want and leave a legacy you're proud of? How do I live? Mm. I live life peacefully. Mm-hmm. Funny about that. Yeah. Um, I make the change. It's my choice. So I make the choices on where I wanna go, and now I've learnt to feel it in my body and what that feels like.

So if something's not feeling right, it's a no. It's a full body no. I'm not doing it. If it's a yes and it lights me up, yeah, I'll have a go. [01:30:00] What's... There's nothing, I said to you this before, there's nothing worse than what I've been through in my whole life What's the worst that could happen? I've been through it, so it doesn't actually

I'm not fussed. As long as it doesn't hurt someone else, obviously. Sure. But, you know. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm really careful on the people I surround myself with and what that looks like, keep myself healthy, active. Mm. Yeah. I don't wanna go down that destructive path. That would've been very easy to go down.

Yeah. Addictions, whatever that looks like. So, no. And like you said, it's choice. Choice. Comes back to choice. Yeah. And I'll be- I'd call people out on that every day long, all day long. It's your choice. Mm. Karina, this has been an unbelievable podcast. Ah, thank you. Thank you so much, and for the effort that you put in, driving all the way from the Sunshine [01:31:00] Coast down here to do this, it is, it's enormous.

I really appreciate that. Um, and obviously everything you do, there's massive effort. Gee, I wonder where Sophie got it from. Massive effort, and you put everything into it. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Really appreciate you being part of the podcast- Oh, thank you ... and being on here, 'cause what you've said is gonna make a massive difference to so many people.

I certainly hope so. I know that. And that's certainly my intention, is just to help others any way I can. Yeah. Um, I think it's really important that we speak about some of these tough, to have tough conversations. It is. Absolutely. Mm. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Appreciate it. Thank you.