Tomorrow is Not Today

[00:00:00] I was an accident. I was n- my mum was never meant to, to get pregnant and, you know, people in the family who loved me, Mum was, they were trying to adopt me out and

So I was looking for ways to build up my self-esteem, and I'd been drunk once before, and it was a disaster. But I remember everything was black, and I'm thinking, "Where am I?" Somebody grabbed me, like, on, on the scruff. And as I kinda got up, I realised I know where I am. I'm in a fight. Ringing me dad, and I remember him saying to me, "Mate, do you think you got a problem?"

And I thought, "I would love to know 'cause I'm getting into fights all the time" There is no such thing as toxic masculinity. There- either you got a, a masculine man or you've got a toxic man That's such a good point. Okay All [00:01:00] that toxic is, is just a man who is undeveloped. I see other men doing cold plunges.

"Oh, I love cold plunges." That's not masculinity. E- everyone should be doing them. You don't need to prove yourself. The more we have strong, well-adjusted men, the stronger our world and society's gonna be. But if men don't step up and lead, man, really, that's how the families are gonna flourish. And it's hard, and you can't do it on your own.

The lone wolf thing, it's, it's a fantasy. You had all this stuff, the success, you're champion, everything's going, but at the same time, there was nothing. 80% of the men go, "You know, how did I not see this?" What would you say was a real man compared to a toxic man? You know, for, for me, and this is, this is one thing I, I, I believe, um, that will define a man

[00:02:00] Welcome to the Tomorrow Is Not Today podcast. Very blessed to have in the studio today, uh, someone that I think, uh, a lot of people know, uh, on the Gold Coast, um, and probably around the world, I believe. Um, I'm gonna introduce a little bit. Former Australian boxing champion. That's right, yeah. I think you were top 12 in the world- That's right

at one stage as well. Yeah, yeah. So that's pretty huge. Um, but obviously that all sounds great, but every one of us has a life and a story. Yeah. Introduce yourself a little bit about who you are, what you're doing now. Yeah. Hey, mate, thank you. This is an honor and a privilege. Uh, yeah, man, this is awesome. So I can't believe I'm here.

I'm doing it. This is great. So, uh, you know, uh, married, seven children, been with my, my wife since we were teenagers. Took the poor girl to hell and back and she hang in there with me. And yeah, we've got seven amazing kids, and we've [00:03:00] always, uh ... I, I suppose my parents, um, always had their own businesses, so I was always destined to, uh, be the worst employee ever.

So I've always ran me own businesses and, and o- just look, looked to create things that have never been done before, either in me or, or, or, or in the world. So- Love that ... that's, that's me. That's me in short. That's awesome. So how, how do you actually help people right now? Yeah. Right now it's all about leveling up for men, leveling up in their family, their business, and their faith.

And, and how we do it, for a long time, you know, we ran a boxing program, uh, for men that never had a fight, which sounds really crazy. But, but it, it was always about who they needed to become- Mm ... to step through the ropes. And w- you know, it, it ended up being, uh, a, a, a initiation and validation process, and we just, the boxing was just the vehicle that, that did it.

But these [00:04:00] days, um, now it's a, it's an online program that we're running. I au- I authored a couple of books, A Rite of Passage for the Modern Man and The Man Alive book. And, uh, so how, how we help them now, more, it's more about finding their purpose or, as we said, you know, transitioning from one season to another.

And for some of those men now, they ... You know, I'm showing them how to monetize it. With the world that we live in now, man, if you're not changing and developing, you're gonna be left behind. Mm. Big time. So, so there's opportunities everywhere for men that are on purpose, on mission, as you know. Yeah, absolutely.

Mate, I love that. One of the things you said just then is who they needed to become- Mm ... to step through the ropes. Yeah. Go into that a little bit for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, um, I always say, and I talk about it in my Rite of Passage book, um, uh, there's the man ... And this was a boxing coach, you know, kinda put it on me when I was outside the ropes waiting to jump in for a s- for a [00:05:00] training session, sparring session.

He must have seen the look, the fear. And he goes, "There's three sorts of man, men inside every man. There's the man I tell you I am, there's the man I think I am, and then there's the guy who lives on the inside." Mm. And generally, you only find that guy- Well, well him being a boxing coach, was inside that ring when things aren't going your way.

So who does that guy need to become? The guy on the inside. You know, and then he said, "That's the guy you gotta make your friend." Mm. Not be afraid of him or intimidated by him or, or, you know, uh, talk bad about him. Man, he- that's you. So- Who do we listen to most? Which one of those three? Oh, the guy on the inside.

Yeah. You know, we, we can, we, we can all tell a good story. We can, we can spruik. You've only gotta flick your phone and go to Instagram. Man, there's a lot of phenomenal stories out there. There is. Yes, there [00:06:00] is. Uh, but it's the real guy we wanna deal with. Yeah. You know? So how do you make that guy your friend?

Yeah. Well, I, I- There's a multitude of different things, hence I take men through a rite of passage, a transition, you know? First of all, you gotta know who you, who you're talking to. You know, who, who, who's the guy that's actually, you know, who you're dealing with, you know? There's not, there's no one way to skin a cat.

And, and, and I s- suppose, so, you know, it's a bit like something that you asked me. You know, we've all got a story. We've all got a journey. So we've all got a different... Some were, some of us were exactly the same in some areas. Other areas, man, we've had different upbringings, et cetera. Mm. Um, so I mean, you know, you asked me a question before and I, I'll, maybe you said, "How the heck did you get into boxing?"

Or words to that effect. And, and that's, you know, for a long time, this is probably talking about those three guys, it was, uh, for a long time people [00:07:00] would say to me, "Why do you box?" And I would, you know, with all honesty I'd say, "Ah, it's good for my fitness. It's good for my health. It's good for my discipline."

The truth, I didn't give a toss about any of those things. I didn't actually even know what was driving me. Mm. I didn't. I didn't know, you know? And I, and I wa- and I was a professional fighter then, you know? And so, but, you know, the, the, say there's a story and you say, how did... I mean, people say to me, "How did you get into boxing?"

And, and, and, uh, you know, 'cause if, I don't know. I've never met s- really too many men say, "Hey, you know, I wanna go and learn how to get punched in the head." But, but I remember, you know, what happened to me. Well, I, I, we shifted to a new town. My dad bought another business, fish and chip shop, and I had the, we had these pinball machines- Mm

in, in, in the fish and chip shop. You know, back in the '80s, that, that was normal. Yep. I remember [00:08:00] them. So it attracts a certain kinda clientele during the day- Mm ... you know, when everyone's at school or at work. So I got to know some of these guys and, and they were a little older than me. I was, like, 14 at the time.

I was a little older. And they invited me on a Saturday night to, a Saturday night to this party. So I thought, "Oh, great." I knew these guys. I thought they were, they were good guys. They were popular, et cetera. I thought, "Great." I remember walking to the party with them and I thought, "Mate, I'm, I'm, I'm in with the, with the cool crowd," like.

And I remember walk- get- you know, walking to the party, going through the, going up the side gate. I remember walking through and just seeing the prettiest girls I've ever seen in my life. I remember, yeah, everyone said to be older. Turned out it was an 18th. And I remember a guy giving me a drink, having a beer, and I'd been drunk once before and it was a disaster.

Anyway, I, I liked the adrenaline though. Anyway, I had a drink, and then it was, I don't [00:09:00] know how long, how the timeframe was, but I remember everything was black And I'm thinking, "Where am I?" And then I, I managed to work out, oh, there's-- I must be on the ground, 'cause I could see people's feet everywhere. Then, then I, I, I felt somebody grab me, like, on, on the scruff and was helping me up.

And as I kinda got up, I realized, I know where I am. I'm in a fight. Oh. And I'm back down on the ground. And I remember, um, I tried to get away, and I'm on the ground, and I tried to go that way, and there was a paling fence. Then I tried to go that way, and there was another paling fence. I went, uh, paling fence, like I'm in the corner.

And all the shoes were kinda facing me. And then I felt the, the help up again. But I knew what was coming, obviously. Mm. So, I managed to try and get away, and I looked for those guys that I went to the [00:10:00] party with that, that were my friends, and they were back at the house. And there's probably, I don't know, maybe 30 people all- Wow

watching me cop, cop a belting by this older guy. He was the popular guy. He's probably about 19 years of age. And these couple of guys were back at, like, at the corner of the house watching me cop this belting. And man, I don't know how that ended, but I remember it was a very long walk home. Lonely, and I was just thinking.

It was like something got birthed in me. Resentment Anger. Uh, you know, my parents love me parents to bits. Um, and, and I suppose though I didn't... Before I knew what values even were, like loyalty was the, just of the highest. And, and, uh, and I felt like loyalty was broken, and that was like my highest value.

I, I, if, uh, i- if it had have been them, I would've jumped [00:11:00] in even though- Mm ... I would've got belt, got belted up, I would've jumped in, you know? And that hurt me probably more than anything. So it sort of sent me on a bit of a spiral, you know? And, uh, and, and, and yeah, it was about, it was actually about two years later where I, what I do is I, I...

New set of principles. I always wore shoes that I could either fight in or run in, and I, and I stopped wearing my best clothes out 'cause they always seemed to get ripped off me. You know, I was always just, I had a chip on my shoulder. Mm. And, and I, and the biggest thing for that, that long walk home that night was, I don't know how, but I'm gonna get this guy back.

I don't know how, but I'm gonna do it. And, and, and, and man, just I was humiliated. You know? That's how I felt anyway. And, uh, yeah, so it just birthed something in me. It was that chip on my shoulder, man. So I, after getting into fights every other weekend for about two [00:12:00] years, me dad opens the bedroom door one Sunday morning, claret out me nose, you know, sort of, uh, you know, not good.

He goes, "Mate, we've gotta teach you how to fight." And I thought, "I would love to know." 'Cause I'm getting into fights all the time. So that kind of, that kind of birthed me. He took me down to the gym where, where he actually fought, down in Footscray in, in, in Melbourne. And, and, um, the trainer who taught him was still there, you know?

And, uh, so that's, that's, uh, duck to water. I just got to it. Wow. Yeah, yeah. It, it, it's interesting how I think as humans we sort of react to things in different ways. Mm. And for you- Mm ... obviously loyalty was something you- Yeah ... thought was important. It's just, you probably thought that's how people lived, normal.

I never even thought. I just thought, yeah, that's- Yeah ... yeah. And then so that, because they were disloyal to you- [00:13:00] Mm ... that built up this resentment and, and harbored, I guess, an anger and a bitterness- Mm ... to want to get back at people in general. Mm. Is that? I don't know, because I always w- I always endeavored to look after the underdog.

Right. You know, when I was younger, I probably seen a lot of things I shouldn't have seen as, as a kid, and there was, you know, I seen a lot of violence and me dad... You know, there was a n- criminal element to, you know, to the, where I lived. Yeah. And, and, and if I look back, I always thought my, my heroes were, were criminals.

And I heard stories, you know, I heard things I probably shouldn't have heard, but I heard things that you don't lag anyone in. Like, if you, you do your time and keep your mouth shut. Mm. You know, that you proved your loyalty through those kind of things. And it was like, I don't know, as a kid you just hear things, you know?

Yeah. My parents never, you know, would, never said, "Hey, listen. This is how you do life." But that's what I [00:14:00] picked up. You know, I always say environment, it's stronger than willpower. So- Mm ... be very careful the environment that you, uh, that you put yourself in. So- That's actually a really good point. Yeah. Really good point.

So, but I, but I suppose as we get older, you know, we, we, we get the opportunity to make that choice, but some of us don't make it. They just, you know. Mm. I always say we got, you know, three, three to, you know, there's almost three choices. The right choice, the wrong choice, or no choice. And that's, that's like, you know- If you don't make a decision, you know, like, you, no choice is, is the worst one.

Yeah. Yeah. So then you got into boxing. Got into boxing. And, and that, how did it become... Obviously, you enjoyed it from the start. Yeah, yeah. How did it become something you followed through? I suppose I was, like, I'm, I'm, I'm 16. Uh, I, I, you know, I, I did things, I suppose. Uh, like as at school, um, I, I finished [00:15:00] school, like, at, at 14, and, and I, I, I never learned to read and write at school.

I, um, you know, sort of was al- I was suspended quite a few times until the teacher said, "What are you doing here?" I said, "I got no idea." Like, took me to the office and he sent me out, you know? Uh, so, a- and, and the first job I got, the only job I could get was a favor of my dad's, was catching chickens, as like-

that was the best, you know? And eventually, but I, but I'd actually, I, I'd got into other things and I... And my dad had got me involved in horses, so I'd been in... So I got, ended up getting a, a job riding truck work, working in stables. Anyway, I kind of... But, but what happened, I got this job, um, in a vegetable garden, right?

And, um, and anyway, long story short, I was able to buy a block of land. I just saved all my money. I think it was just I needed to prove myself. Thought wealth is the one way of, of, uh, proving yourself, or [00:16:00] that's, you know, what I thought. And, uh, so I remember I, I actually, one thing, again, my dad being a bit of a, a...

Well, buying and selling businesses and whatever, yeah. I actually won money through, uh, horse racing. Oh, wow. So what I, what I did, I actually invested in a pinball machine. So I'll, I was get- making money out of that, right? And I ended up, when I got this other job, um, me old man seen, uh, this advert for blocks of land for sale.

He goes, "Go and show your boss," 'cause he, you know, had a lot of land in the area. I remember he grabbed me and goes, "Yeah, okay. Like, all right, meet me here on your pushbike after work." So he picked me up on the ute, drove down to the real estate. On the way down he said, "How much money have you got?" And I told him, you know.

He goes, "'Cause you're gonna need about $1,600." I said, "Yeah, I've got $1,600." So I bought a block of land that night. Wow. Like, that was, you know... Uh, [00:17:00] anyway, I'm getting to how I got... You know, so I was looking for ways to build up my self-esteem. Mm. Although I didn't know it. Mm. You know, I'd been booted from school.

I was always, you know- Square peg in a round hole, I suppose. So I was building ways up there. So when I got into boxing and, uh, I just was duck to water. It was like I started getting a pat on the back. And my, my dad, mum, very encouraging. The best parents ever. They were always encouraging. My biggest, you know, cheer squad.

Um, but you know, I was just... I had an attitude. Yeah. So then I started boxing. I started, I started to go on really good at it. You know, I started, you know, in that first kinda, I don't know, s- maybe, I think it was about, like a season, like a nine-month season, I had, like six fights. And amateur fights, I thought, "Well, this is great."

And then, 'cause I just stayed away from all the old environment. Mm. And then I remember me [00:18:00] coach saying to me, "You need to have two weeks off, mate. You've just been here, like, you've trained every day." Like it's all... I, I was just obsessed. And, uh, and I remember having two weeks off. Oh, yeah, that first weekend, going back, I see me old mates and picking up a drink.

And, and that- Two weeks was actually as last as, I didn't get back to the gym for three months. Wow. And I just, I just, it, it was like I just had all this time off the, the alcohol, and I picked that up and I just, I don't know. I wouldn't say I couldn't stop. I didn't wanna stop. Mm. So I remember getting back to the gym and, and I fought for about six months again and did really good.

Had, like, six fights in six months, just accelerated. End up was about, um, I don't know, end up f- you know, fighting the best in V- the state, Victoria at that time, and, uh, did, did really good. And, um, end up [00:19:00] fighting, uh, a bloke that went to the Commonwealth, um, Games. And it was like I was so premature, you know.

Should not have ever done that. But anyway, I had a coach that was maybe more enthusiastic than me, you know. More b- anyway, I remember getting knocked out and, uh, I remember thinking, "Man," I remember, yeah, or maybe it's happening or maybe it hasn't. I remember, uh, uh, get, you know, I don't remember really getting hit, but I remember looking up and just the lights are shining.

I'm on me back on the ground. Everyone's looking at me. And I remember being so angry, just jumping up and I wanted to continue the fight, you know. Mm-hmm. It had been over for minutes. Yeah. You know, I laugh now, but man, it was, I was stinging, you know? And, uh, you know, that's, that's, you know, so I actually went way off the rails that time.

They said, "You can't fight for a month," blah, blah, blah. [00:20:00] I wanted to fight him straight away, you know. Like, I was, uh, so in that month I picked the drink up again and that, that lasted maybe about a year. Wow. That drink. It was meant to be a month. Yeah, a month off out of the gym, et cetera. And I remember getting back to the...

I remember thinking if I could just get back to the gym I'll stop drinking. You know, it'll, it'll curve things. Uh, and you know, like I, I remember training a couple of days a- and the coach goes to me, it was a different coach, uh, he goes to me, uh, 'cause he knew me, um, he goes, "Listen, if you train every day this week, I'll get you a fight on Friday night."

And I'm like, my thinking was, that will keep me away from those mates of mine. Mm-hmm. So I remember fighting. I won the fight and, um, and I, I remember the g- coach grabbing me straight away and goes, "Listen, [00:21:00] don't drink. Go home and I'll see you at the gym Monday, and we'll do the same. If you train aga- again every day, we'll get you another fight next Friday night."

So I'm, I'm buzzing from the fight, you know? So I, I'd done the same thing. Anyway, what, what it was, which I didn't know after about three weeks, it went... 'Cause I, I ended up having eight fights in, in seven weeks . Wow. And I wasn't even fit, you know? But what it was, it was, uh, like a round robin for the state titles and the Australian titles.

And, and I end up, uh, you know, coming third in Australia. And, and I mean, I, to be honest, I was happy to lose that last fight. I was done. I was tired. I was sore. I, my nose was broken about, uh, three weeks into it, you know, in training, and I had to keep fighting with a broken nose and... Anyway, but I learnt some lessons, you know?

But, but the, the thing was then I thought, "Oh, you know what? I'll, uh, I'll have a drink." You know, I'd done [00:22:00] such a good job, you know? Mm. And, and, and me, you know, me dad shifted away, uh, up to North Queensland and, and brought another business up there and whatever. So after a couple of months I end up going up there and, and, uh, you know, I, I just, I was always gonna get back to the gym, you know?

'Cause I wanted to be a fighter. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, and, and, and I remember he had a caravan park, and I met all these guys from kind of round the world. There wasn't a, like a, a tourist caravan park, it was one of those ones where, uh, backpackers would go and- Oh, yeah ... pick fruit from. Yeah. You know? Um, so it was licorice all sorts, you know?

It was, it was, you got everything there. And, uh, yeah, so I remember, um, these guys talking to me about Thailand, about different parts of Asia, about Europe, and when I'd never known anybody- Mm ... that had kinda gone overseas. Not like that. I mean, we went to Bali for 10 days. That was, you know, like it wasn't really.

So I started meet- [00:23:00] And there was a couple of older travelers there. Maybe they were probably in their 40s or something, and that means they were seasoned travelers, you know? And they were telling me stories and I, I remember, you know, getting some money together, um- Planting sugarcane and stuff up in North Queensland, you know?

And, uh, and I remember getting some money together, and I remember buying a ticket to, to... 'Cause all these guys, "I'll meet you over there, and I'll meet you over there," you know? "I'll meet you here, and I'll meet you there." And, uh, so I remember, yeah, man, just very naive. I'm probably 19 years of age. And, um, and, and just getting on the plane.

I remember being in the, in the, you know, the old school, where you... What do they call it? Travel agents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. M- map of the world. Yep. I remember stand- saying to the, the woman, "All right, I wanna go traveling overseas." She says, "Well, where do you wanna go?" I said, "Well, where, where can I go?" Like So she goes, "Well, there's the map of the world."

So I started looking at the [00:24:00] map of the world. I was like, "Hey, Eiffel Tower, I'll go there." Well, she goes, "Well, you gotta... You can, you could get two stops over there and t- and then stops on the way back. So where do you wanna go?" "Uh, uh, hmm. Singapore, I'll go there. I'll go ..." So I'll be, let, that's, that was the planning.

Wow. You know? And, uh, you know, and that, that's what I did, you know? I remember, very naive. I remember flying to, uh, Singapore, getting off the plane, and, like, reality hit me Mm. On my own, stone-cold sober. Like, where the heck am I? I remember, never forget this guy. Uh, he m- he must have spotted me. I was pretty green.

He was a New Zealander fella, bit of a... Been traveling for a few years. And he goes, "Mate, where are you going?" I said, "No idea." He goes, "You got a place to stay?" I said, "No." He goes, "Mate, I know a place that'll go..." Sweet. Great. So I remember being there a couple of days in Singapore, and he goes... And I met this other guy in the backpackers, and he [00:25:00] goes, "Hey, I'm going up to Thailand."

He heard I was, I was going to Thailand. He goes, "I'm going to Thailand. Do you wanna go together?" I s- said... I said, "What do you mean? Aren't, aren't we...?" "No," he goes, "We're gonna go through Malaysia. We've gotta go to Malaysia first, and then go to Thailand." And I said, "Aren't we in Malaysia?" He goes, "No, we're in Singapore."

I said, "Yeah, isn't Singapore the capital of Malaysia?" Oh, I was so naive. I didn't know. I- Wow ... I was... Yeah, you would get the gifts, though, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, but I, I discovered ecstasy- Mm ... in, in, in Thailand and, and got into that. And, uh, man, you know, you know, it was, that was brutal. It was brutal, you know?

Yeah. The, those full moon parties, man. We're talking, you know, over 30 years ago, there was no rules. There was no rules. Yeah. I don't know, I don't know. You know, I don't wanna talk about it too much, man. It was, it was brutal, you know? And, uh, yeah, I ended up going to Himalayas with some guys I [00:26:00] met there.

Ended up in, in, in Thai- ah, sorry, Amsterdam. Some fellows there, they said they could get me a job in Amsterdam from guys I met in Thailand. They were, they were actually Jewish, they were from Israel. And, uh, man, it was, it w- it was a mission. But I remember they said to me, "Listen, you come here, we'll give you a car, we'll give you a job.

You come and party with us." Sweet. Anyway, I was selling s- s... Uh, what do I, uh, s- what do they say? Throb dust and sun umbrella. That was the Dutch for sunglasses and ties. Oh, wow. That was your job. So, so I'd go, they give me this car. I'd go to a, uh, uh... They'd tell me where to go all around Holland. And, um, and I'd go.

It was illegal, but we'd go, we- we'd, we'd open up a, a big blanket, put all the, the, either glasses if it was a sunny day or ties if it was overcast, and then sell as many as we could before the coppers would come. [00:27:00] We'd pack everything up and run away, you know? One time we got pinks, actually. We ended up telling them a good story.

It was a younger copper. We told him where to go in Thailand, and so he ended up letting us go. We were fine. But I remember one time, one scary moment. Um, I remember get- coming home one morning after playing up on, on all sorts of stuff. And, uh, and I remember walking through the door in the morning, and for some reason I thought to myself- Wonder where my, that plane ticket that I had to go home, you know?

Mm. You know, in the old days you get the tickets not, not online. And I remember, I don't know how the heck I survived, 'cause in Thailand I ended up giving all my clothes away. I literally had a vest, a bum bag, and a sarong. Yeah, I, I was living on a nudist beach for, for two of those three months. It was out there, right?

Give everything away. Anyway, uh, I remember finding that ticket and looking at it. You know, it was all wet [00:28:00] half a dozen times. It was... I remember thinking, "The date. What, what, what date is it?" Which is not too bad, you know, you know what... But I remember thinking, or I found out what date it was, "What month is it?"

Oh. I said, "Hang on a minute, that's kind of embarrassing to ask people what month is it," you know? Found out what month it was, and I realized I missed the, my plane home by three weeks. Mm. And, and, and the worst bit was that I was actually in the wrong country. I was meant to be in the UK, and I was still, like, in...

And there was people waiting, you know, that had organized that. So I'd, I'd missed- I don't know how long. Like, I was out-- I remember ringing me dad, always reverse charges. Uh, and, and I remember him saying to me, "Mate, do you think you got a problem?" And I remember getting off the phone. I was not... I remember getting the phone, you know, with the cord, and I [00:29:00] just started...

Oh, the anger. Mm. I started bashing this, this, you know, the end of the phone, and there's this line waiting to use the phone, and there was this, like... I was not in a good place. But something must have struck a chord with me, 'cause I come-- I got back to Australia, and there was a, there was a, a, a, you know, a family, uh...

My sister's boyfriend committed suicide, you know? Mm. And, um, and, uh, you know, I drank with him, and yeah, like it was just not good obviously. And, and, uh, but I, but I remember that, that point. Something, I knew s- I-- Even when that phone rang and they, they told us, I was there. I knew something had happened.

Like, I had something, you know, like something, you know? And, uh, and, and, you know, that was just a-- Man, something spiritually happened. I can't ex- It's hard to explain. I never was a- You know, I never sort of told anyone. But, but something happened, and it was like there was something that... 'Cause it was just, I was, I was with my sister.

It was like [00:30:00] something that just covered us and, and kinda looked after us and how we, for that, for those few days that week, and, and we buried him and, and, uh, it was just brutal, you know? And, uh, but, but I remember, uh, thinking, "I gotta, I just gotta..." My dream was to be a fighter. Mm. You know? And, and of course that, that, that month of not having a drink, it was at about the three-year mark at this point, and I was burning.

Like, I knew I want, but I just kept, just couldn't get me act together. So I thought, "I'm gonna go back to my old coach back in Melbourne." I'm up North Queensland, and I, and I stopped up, I stopped on the Gold Coast for two days 'cause an old girlfriend that, uh, you know, she's m- well, since we were kids, you know, always on and off, but I was always being me, you know?

And I heard she was on... It was like, I remember ringing her mum, and her mum didn't wanna tell me where to get her, her number. Anyway, I managed to be able to [00:31:00] get the number. I rang her up and, and, and of course, um, yeah. Yeah, so I connected with her. Um, and, and that two days ended up being a week, you know, ended up being...

And there was all people that were from our hometown that were living here. You know, there was like dozen of us living in a two-bedroom unit, you know? And, and I don't know. It was all of a sudden after about a couple of weeks, everyone left, and it was me and her. Uh, and, you know, I always loved her my whole life, you know.

I just was a mess, you know?

And I, I'm trying to get, I'm trying to get... I got to a gym. I thought, "I've gotta start training again," blah, blah, blah. But I just couldn't do it. I, I got to the point, I remember when, like, I... What happened was I wa- I wa- I was sick and tired of people that knew me, other boxing coaches maybe didn't know me well but knew of me.

They'd say, "Gav, you got so much ability [00:32:00] But where you been? Where, what have you been doing? Mm. And I was then, somebody else, I bumped, "Gav, that was amazing what you, that fight you had. W- where have you been, though?" You know? And I, I couldn't have, I didn't have an answer. I mean, I could tell them vaguely the locations I'd been.

Yeah. But why, I don't know, you know? And I remember, hmm, I, I, I remember making the decision, you know. I remember getting teed up. I was at, I was at, like, world champions. They were using me as sparring partners. Like, that was an honor to be opera- you know, getting to train with people at that level. And I remember one time where...

And I, I remember taking some, some drugs, um, before a training session to spar with this champion, you know? I thought, "What am I doing, man? What am I doing?" I just couldn't wait until after the session, you know? I, anyway, I remember making the decision, if I can't do the right thing, I'm gonna do the wrong thing.

'Cause I know whatever I do it, I, whatever I [00:33:00] do, I know I can be good at it. Mm. And it was too hard to do the right thing. Thought, "Bugger it. I'm just gonna do the wrong thing." And so I started knocking around with the, I guess, progressed the criminal behavior, et cetera. Anyway, I ended up this one point where we'd done this robbery, we'd been paid, we got to the c- you know, so we got a wad of cash.

You know, with criminals, what do you do? You go to the casino. So I go to the casino, right? And, and I remember, well, I don't really remember much, but I remember, um, about 8:00 in the morning. You know, we'd been there since midnight. I had no cash. Now everything'd gone. And I remember the, the security asking me to leave, and I told them, "You don't tell Gavin Top what to do."

Of course. Anyway, I remember them escorting me down to the car park and giving me a, a belting. Thought, "Okay." And then they escort you over the [00:34:00] bridge, arm up the back, you know. Six of them all got me arm over. Mm. So what I, and I had this, and a guy was with me, and I said, "No." So I snuck back and got in me car.

You know, I'd been drinking all night, and I remember driving to the front where those, you know, the big glass doors are. I remember reversing, driving around, reversing back to get ready to, to reverse straight through the double doors to show them, you know? And, and uh, um, I, I put, I go to put it in reverse, and my mate who's with me is screaming his head off, "What are you doing?"

And of course, I look in the rear-view mirror, all the security, everyone's looking at me and I'm about to show them and reverse through the, the front doors. And something happened. I thought, "Hang on a minute. I'm gonna do this." So I put it in drive and I, I drove home. Uh, and that, that guy, I don't think [00:35:00] he's ever spoken to me again, actually.

He was, he went white. Anyway, I walk through the door, you know, it's about mid-morning, and my, my, my girlfriend goes to me. She just looked me in the eye and she goes, "You need help." Mm. And for that, just that split moment, I couldn't- I, I just, I know. I just couldn't put the facade up. So no. She go- so she goes, jumps straight on the phone.

She was smart. She goes, "Well, you can see a doctor." So we go to this doctor that, that day and, and I start to tell him... He starts to ask me these questions, I start to tell him everything. And, uh, and he goes to me, um, and he's just nodding, he's nodding. Yep, yep. He's writing things, yep. He's nod- I'm thinking, "This bloke's awesome."

At the end of it, he goes, "Listen, son, there's not much I can do for you." I'm like, "What?" He goes, "Yeah." He goes, basically give me a number of, of, uh, a [00:36:00] rehab. And I was, I thought, "You, I'm paying you, mm, good money to serve me this rubbish? What sort of doctor are you?" Anyway, what happened was, I, I, I, I, I, um, man, I e- I ended up, my, my, that suicide, um, my sister's boyfriend, he, uh, it was one year anniversary, so I thought, I didn't want her to be on her own.

So I flew back to North Queensland to be with her. And I remember getting there, and I thought, well, the first place I wanted to go was, um, the gravesite. And, um, so I, I go there and, and I don't know, I wa- I, I wasn't... I knew I was not in a good way, and I was just thinking about what had happened at the casino the last few months and, and the people I was associating with.

And, uh, and I, and I [00:37:00] see, his name was Jay, and I said, "Jay, mate, I don't know if you can hear me, but I need some help." And, and I, and I hear this, I felt, but I heard this voice say, "Everything is gonna be okay." And I'm like, "Who's that?" And he was Italian, so that his family made him a big, like, room. Yeah, like a restaurant.

And I remember walking around saying, "Who, who, who is, who am I speaking to? Who else?" But this feeling of when I felt that, when I heard and felt that voice, it was like this love. And I, and I, I'm kinda like half afraid, but, but it felt good. Mm. And I, and I started to think about... And as those days kind of, that, that kind of, rest of the afternoon went on, like, I mean, I didn't tell anyone.

I couldn't tell. I didn't know what had happened. But I started to think about when I was a kid, [00:38:00] when, when I was gonna, uh, commit suicide. I was about 10 years of age. I threw a rope over a rafter, and I, and I stuck my head through the noose, and, and that same feeling of, of, of love and peace sort of come...

And I, and I kinda like remember thinking, "Oh, I'm gonna do this." And then, then I, then I remember s- some-- I, I remember one time with that guy who, who beat me up one time. I, I spotted him once, and I, and I was about 16 in this nightclub. And I remember finishing me, me pot of beer, and I remember walking to the toilets and smashing it on the ground, sort of half putting it up me sleeve.

I thought, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna fix this guy real good." And, uh, so I stood sort of half me back, so he couldn't kinda... Yeah, I was next to him, but I was kind of facing the other way. I thought, "On the count of three, I'm gonna glass him in the face. I'm gonna sort him out." And I remember going, "Three, two..." And as I [00:39:00] was between the, as I was about to do it, he kinda just walked off, and that feeling of peace and love come on me.

I'm like-- And I'm remembering all these times through my life. When, when I'm in Thailand, I get chased by these f- uh, these four, uh, flipping lady boy, homosexual. Mm. And I was running for my life, and I ran off this cliff. I don't know how I didn't break me back, you know? Uh, same thing. It's like I, I always knew I'd been looked after.

I know I was being looked after. I just didn't know how or what. So anyway, so this is going on. I remember I, I set out that night to just go help me sister, but... And I wasn't gonna drink. And I, and I remember having a drink. And I remember just, just, just wasn't working. Just, uh, the shame and the guilt, and I'm, I'm her big brother and I'm e- I'm embarrassing, you know?[00:40:00]

And, uh, and, and, and you know, like that was... I end up getting back to the Gold Coast and, um- You know, I was like, I don't know what to do, you know? And, and yeah, Michelle goes to me, "Y- you gonna go to that, that, those, those meetings?" I'm like She goes, "I'll ring up." So she rings up, and, uh, and she starts having this conversation with this, with this bloke on the other end of the line.

And, and he's saying to her, why aren't I on the phone speaking to him? And I'm like, I'm scared. I didn't know, I didn't know that word existed then Mm. But I was scared. And, and so he's having an argue- They start arguing. So I picks the phone up, said, "Mate, where the heck are you? I'm gonna go and bash this guy for upsetting me girl."

I put her through hell, [00:41:00] but somebody else upset her . Not good. So he goes, "I'll meet you Isle of Capri, 8:00 meeting." Like, "I'll be there. Make sure you're there." I go drive to the meeting. The fear hits me. I'm at the door. There's all these people there. I'm like, uh, I forgot all about that guy. I thought... Some bloke welcomes me, sits me down, makes me a cup of tea.

And, uh, and I, I... The, the meeting starts, and the person starts talking about blackouts, starts talking about drink driving, starts talking about violence, starts talking about re- regrets, uh, shame. And I'm thinking, my, my girlfriend's, she's told everyone about me. She's given me up. Then I thought, then the next person says similar thing, talks about missed opportunities, talks about regret, and I'm thinking, I'm gonna kill her.[00:42:00]

By the time the end of the meeting happened, I thought, "I'm exactly the same as these people." And I'm think- And this, this, a guy approached me that I didn't know. I didn't... I'd met him, but I didn't know him, and he was from the boxing gym. He'd been, he was a, like, he was a, he'd been an Australian champion when he was younger.

Anyway, so he, he sits me down and, and starts to talk to me, and I'm, like, real cagey. You know, like, I don't, I don't want every- I've been given up. I don't wanna give myself up anymore. And, and, and he just knew how to talk to me. And, and it was like he put his fingers in my chest. And he goes, "Son, there's something in you that, that only you can fulfill.

There's a mission. There's a purpose." And I'm like, "I know that. How do I get from here to [00:43:00] there? Just tell me what to do. I'll do it." And he goes, "Don't drink from now to tomorrow- The next meeting, I, uh, and, uh, just do that. I said, "I'll do that, but tell me what have I gotta do?" He goes, "Just do that." I said, "Tell me.

I need to know, like..." He goes, "Don't drink, and I'll see you tomorrow." He goes, "Settle down, son." Well, you know, emotions are unregulated. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I did that. And then I said, "All right, what do I gotta do?" He goes, "Don't drink from now to the next meeting, and I'll see you then." I say, "Then you gonna tell me?"

He goes, "Then I'll tell you the next thing." So I got a few days, I got a week. They turned it into a week. I started to say, "Hang on a minute." Then I started hearing stories. I started [00:44:00] hearing about people creating a life. I started, I started... I remember, I remember, uh, the- they started reading out of this book, and they said, uh, they talked about the promises.

If you keep doing this, there's promises that come. And, and I remember them saying about, this guy started to read this book, and he goes, "That you will have a life beyond your wildest gream- dreams." And I said, "Listen, mate. I'm in. Don't overdo it." It's too thick. You're laying it on too thick, you know? I've been hanging around with, with would-be gangsters, with flipping...

You know, like mate, I'm in, but just don't ruin it for me. You know? My, my, my hopes were low, you know? And, uh, and, and, you know, after a few months, you know, I'd get-- I just would either go to an AA meeting. I, I, I, I, I endeavored to go to a rehab. I got kicked out. Didn't last a day. So I-- It's like, "Gav, you [00:45:00] gotta do it the hard way, son," you know?

So I kept going to meetings, and then I, I got a, I got a mentor. You know, I had a... And then one mem- mentor introduced me to another mentor. And, uh, it's almost like I needed a g- a group of men to, to really wrestle me into submission type of thing. And, and I, and basically between those meetings, I w- I trained.

I went to the gym. I went to a meeting. I went for a run. I went to another meeting. I went to sleep. I got up, I went to a meeting. I ran. I went to another meeting. I went to the gym. I went to another meeting. So I, I started doing... I remember about a year mark, I thought, "I gotta, I gotta get some money as well," you know?

Like, I gotta... And then I was too afraid to really go back to any environment, so I got this job washing dishes. It was like, it was, uh, you know, I remember, uh, thinking, I go, "I, I don't wanna go back to... You know, I can't. And I want something that can, um, com- you know, that gives me time to go to [00:46:00] meetings, to train, et cetera."

So I get this job washing dishes. And, um, and, and I remember it was about two months, and, and it was going good. You know, I mean, when I say going good, um, it w- I was staying sober, and I was training, and I started getting a couple of fights. And, and, and, and then me-- I remember me going to the gym, and me coach goes to me, "Hey, listen.

There's an opportunity to fight on Fox Sports." And I'm like Inside I'm in, but I'm out. Like, how, what? This is too much, this is too big, you know? But, uh, he, he believed in me, said I could do it. And, and you know, uh, I said, "I'll take it." I remember having that fight, and I remember, I remember, um, it was brutal.

It's actually on, it's actually on the Gavin Top YouTube channel. Somebody put it on. Steve Woollett. It was a brutal [00:47:00] fight. And, uh, oh, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. Like, it was just at another level. And Stevie Woollett, just an absolute journeyman. Just amazing, uh, fighter. Tough, goodness me. And, um, I remember me getting a cut eye.

And I remember j- And he, and he was dirty too. I remember the ref's on one side of me, you know, splitting, breaking us up, and he's on the other side and he's got his glove and he's just grinding it into my cut eye. It's like, "You blind referee." Like, what are you... Anyway, you watch the replay you can see it.

Steve Woollett, absolute champion fella. We connected many years later. But, um, but I remember getting back to wash dishes couple nights later. I remember the, the, the bloke who owned the joint, okay, he says to me, "Was that you on Fox Sports the other day?" I said, "Yeah, that was me." And, uh, and I just keep washing [00:48:00] dishes.

You know, I want this job. I need this job. Like, you know. But, but I remember getting, starting to fight Fox Sports on a, on a regular basis. And, and, and, and I, and I think, you know, like, those mentors, those coaches that I had, I had some great, uh, some, some champion men that helped me stay sober. Um, some other boxing coaches.

And then, and then a couple of those guys started to introduce me to these, these rites of passages, and I could s- I, I could start to see what I'd been looking for. You know, like every m- in the DNA of every man is a warrior. So just to ask on that with, because obviously you started to make a change. Yeah.

Something clicked. Was it the people that were around you? Was it th- 'Cause obviously that guy started to believe in you- Mm ... and could see there was something there. Was it the belief in you that somebody had? Was it having a group of people around the environment that made the difference? What was it that made the difference for you that, that [00:49:00] made, put you on that track?

Yeah. Well, I'd always had people that believed in me. So it was that, but maybe, maybe there was something else. Because, uh, I suppose they were, uh, aware of the initiation and validation process. And like I said, in the DNA of every man's a warrior. Mm. But there's two sorts of warriors. There's trained and there's untrained.

And when I was younger, I was untrained. Even when I was training as a fighter, I was untrained. Like, I could fight. I was, you know, but I was untrained. I didn't have the wisdom to go with it. So when you say untrained, was it the wisdom or the ability to be in control of your emotions and- Both ... focus and things?

Both. Okay. You know? Yeah. You know, like, man, in- inside that ring, remember the three men. Yeah. Inside that ring, that guy, sometimes [00:50:00] that guy inside, he'll have a tantrum. Mm. "I'm not, it's not going my way." Yeah, but that's where, you know... I remember one thing that my, my, my, uh, my, my dad said to me, but I never got it till down the track.

He go, um, "An angry guy, an angry man's an easy man to fight. He's predictable." Mm. It's when you poker face, no matter how... And I remember there was one time, we were, we were at, at these horse shows when I was young, and I, I, uh, it's, I think it's a very good story to, to understand, uh, around that validation and how it can work, how it is working, you know?

Mm-hmm. 'Cause some of them are being validated for the wrong thing and, and performing, you know? So we're at this horse show, and I'm, I'm, I'm, like, 13 at the time, and um, it was like a three-day event. And I remember, uh, we go to put [00:51:00] our... We had a couple of horses. We go to put our horses in these stalls, and this, this guy comes in.

He's, he had 10 horses, had strappers, big Mercedes-Benz truck, and he's, you know, he's a big bloke and he's barking orders, and he put his horse in our stalls. And me dad said to him, "Hey, listen, mate, I think you're in my stalls." And the bloke says to me dad, you know, "Mate, nick off down those, those, you know, the shitty ones down the end there."

And me dad said to him, by that time the atmosphere had changed in these stables. Mm. It's like everyone's watching us. And me dad says, "Listen, I'm gonna go and double-check this is my stalls. I'm gonna be back in five minutes. If those horses aren't out, I'm coming for you." And I'm shaking as a kid. You know, like, I'm sha- We go back, we come back in five minutes, we put our ho- [00:52:00] they're out.

We put our horses in, et cetera. And so me dad goes to me later that day and said, he goes... He sat me down, he goes, "You know what happened today?" I said, "Yeah, I know what happened today." He go- And he told me a story. He goes, "The..." When he was, you know, when I was young, um, me dad was in jail, right? And he was in, uh, there, at that time there was a couple of guys who'd killed a, murdered a taxi driver, right?

And so me dad was in the, in the pen with these guys, and they, one of them befriended him, right? And at the end of the day, they go to, you know, go back to their cells. The guy goes to me dad, "I like your shoes." And me dad goes, "Thanks." He goes, "Give me your shoes." And me, me dad said to me, "Listen, we fought. I kept my shoes."

Right? We don't take rubbish off anybody. What's ours, we take. We, we don't, we [00:53:00] don't cop crap. We never take a backward step. He goes, "You are..." And which I know, he goes, "You are the spit out of my mouth." I know I'm exactly like me dad. He goes, "Mate, we don't take rubbish off anybody." And, and so when he said that, I just...

He, no one's tougher than we are. We're tops. We don't take crap off anybody. So that was, like, a- an impartation. Mm. So as I was get- as I was, as I got sober, all these things were coming back to me. Mm. Was it when I started to learn about this validation, this initiation. My old man had been doing 'em in a funny sort of way, the best that nobody showed him.

But, um, so, so there was times in that boxing ring when, when, um, I didn't have 30 people watching me get belted. I had 1.2 million people watching me. But I remember there was times where I thought, "I don't know. And it [00:54:00] doesn't matter how hard it is, how, how painful it is, how fatigued, it doesn't matter. I can out-tough this guy.

He can't take more crap than me. I can out-tough anyone." Mm. I remember there's quite a few times. So I suppose as I started going through those right of passage, I started to, there's things I can... There's things every person can draw on- Mm ... that can, that, that no matter what sort of a past you've had, there's, there's good stuff, there's gold if you go looking.

So I remember there was times where I thought, "I can't do this," but I knew I could hang on. I could just tough it out. I remember having fights where, and almost like, I can't... If I feel like this, he looks like, like who's gonna give in? And then they take a backward step. I gotcha. So that, that grit, I guess- Mm

to take the, um, title of a book, that was something that was in you, I guess, planted from your dad in a way. Yeah. That, but [00:55:00] would've been squashed. Or was it still there? I think it needed to be uncovered. Right. I, I think- Yeah ... you know, it, it had been, you know, I think if we look every person listening here, it, there's treasure everywhere.

Mm-hmm. Mm. You know, God didn't make any accidents. Yeah. You know? A- and I mean, you know, like, all these things we can build on. I, I remember, you know, like, I remember there was one point around that, that season, you know, I'm fighting on Fox Sports 3, it was starting to go real good, and, um, I remember the coach comes, "We'll get an opportunity to fight for a Commonwealth title."

I'm like, "Wow." But it was in the next weight division, et cetera. And I was like, "I'll, I'll go. I'll do it." I'm like, "Man, I'm on a roll here," you know? And, and [00:56:00] anyway, so we, we, we take the fight, and it's in Canada. Man, and I remember I, I was, I was s- I was training so hard. I had a business going. I had a dozen blokes working.

Well, 'cause all these opportunities start up and when you're the champ. Mm. Everyone wants to be your friend. Well, not everyone. You know. Yeah. People come out the woodwork. Which good people, I'm not saying negative. Yeah. Good people. Um, and, and so I got this business going, and a dozen, dozen men working for me.

And so I'm pushing hard there, I'm pushing hard at training. Um, you know, I marry my wife, you know. Uh, we've got a, you know, five years sober and, um, and so we'll take this fight. And I remember leading up to the fight, I get this, like, chronic fatigue. I was just like, I'm, I've, I've cooked myself. Mm. It's like, so they managed to be able to postpone the fight.

And this guy's ranked number six in the world. Like, it's another level to what I'm used [00:57:00] to. Long story short, we, we get, we get over there. The second preparation works. I come good. Takes me a few months. Come good. Get over there and it's winter, man, in Edmonton, Canada. Man, it's like 20 below. Go from a, you know, Gold Coast summer to it's like the worst, man.

Anyway, after about three days, I'm in the gym, I'm hitting the pads. I'm thinking, "This guy's in trouble. I'm on." You know. And I'm having radio interviews, TV interviews. I'm, like, gotta do the whole thing you get over about 10 days before. And about the fifth day, I just didn't feel like I was just a little bit off.

And then about the sixth day, I'm thinking, "I feel terrible today." And then the seventh day, I'm thinking, "Oh, it feels like that's coming back." So by the time the 10th day, the day of the fight, I, I, I, I go to the... I m- you know, I walk in the dressing rooms and I sit down for a rest, and I go to get [00:58:00] changed and I can't even do me boots up.

I'm just exhausted. Mm. And there's, like, 10,000 people there. They're telling me, bought tickets. There's, um, you know, it's televised in 32 countries. I mean, you can't say, "I don't feel like it tonight." Yeah. There's a lot... You're committed. So I remember thinking, "Oh, my goodness." So I remember there was this little room, a door next to my, the dressing rooms where I'm, you know, I'm getting changed.

So I get up and I walk in there, and it's dark. I close the room. And I, and I slouch down and I'm like, and that feeling of peace and love comes on me again. Like the, like every couple of years it'd turn up. And I'm like What's, God, what are you doing? Like, I'm, why have you got me here? And then it was like my, my grandmother where I used to live a lot when, when, when I was younger, and, um, she always had, all my life she had [00:59:00] this old school picture of Christ when you walk in her front door.

I don't know, I always, you know, look at it, and she'd take me when I was a kid, and I'd live with her, and she'd take me to the Catholic church and stuff. And, and, and, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm in the dark. I've slouched down. I'm meant to be warming up. There's 10,000 people waiting, and I, and I get this picture in my mind of this nana's picture- Mm

of Christ in her doorway. And I'm like, and that feeling of love comes on me again. I'm like, "God, are you Jesus?" Like, is this- And then I, I remember saying to myself, "Your timing is way out." Like, "I have to fight tonight." And I was like, as I said that, that feeling of love and peace kind of just kind of left me.

Mm. And I remember thinking, "I just made a mistake." [01:00:00] And me coach opens the door and says, "Mate, we're on." And I'm like ... Oh, I couldn't-- I didn't know what had really had happened. So l- talk about a lamb, a lamb being led to the slaughter, man. I remember walking out through the crowd. I hadn't warmed up. He'd done me.

He did me boots up, and he's trying to raise the dead in me. And I, and, you know, I, I, I remember about, see, in those international rules, there's no standing eight-count. So you either fight or you, you're knocked out. You-- or you take a knee. Mm. You, you, you give up, you know? And on the top, you don't give up.

It's not an option. So I remember, but I remember about, about the third round, he's hitting me flush on the chin, and I remember like, I don't know if you've ever been hit like this, but I remember it, it was like my, your body goes into shock. You're like, "This must be hurting," but I can't feel nothing. I remember thinking, [01:01:00] "Maybe my legs broke," 'cause I'm, I'm, I'm going one way, I'm back the other.

Like, my legs weren't doing their job. But I stayed on my feet, and I remember gr- being able to grab him and, and there's a technique that you grab them like that with their arms through. Mm. You know, you kind of like, you'd be able to hold them like, and I get my head over his shoulder so he c- you know, he can't hit me from that spot.

And I'm thinking about what had happened before in the dressing rooms. And I says, "God, all I want is a fight I can be proud of. That's all I want." And the referee's trying to pull us apart. I'm hanging on. Eventually he, he's, "You gotta, mate, you're gonna be disqualified if you don't let go," you know? "Let go."

Then I remember round six, the coach helped me off the stool, saying, "You're halfway." And I'm like, "How did I get this far?" Mm. You know? And, and then I remember the ninth round, where same thing happened, where I was, I was s- I [01:02:00] was all over the place, and stayed on me feet. And then I remember he, 'cause I was like...

I don't know. I don't remember. But I remember him saying, "Son, you got three minutes to go. It's the last round. For God's sake, will you just stay out of his way?" And I get up on me feet going, "How have I done 11?" And I remember thinking- Pff. He, like, I, like I me- so I went, I went for it, and I'm pretty sure I won the last round.

I think he was exhausted from belting me for 11. But I remember at the end of the fight, they, obviously he won 11 rounds. They put his hand up, and somebody come from behind and put my hand up and started to lead me around the ring. And I go around this side, standing ovation. That side, standing ovation.

It's like all I could think about was that prayer I prayed. I just, "Give me a fight I can be proud of." I thought, "He's given me what I asked for." Mm. Even though I turned my back. [01:03:00] It's like... And of course, man, I was sore. Man, I was sore. I was belted. You know? And I remember it probably took me about a month, I reckon, to get over it.

It was brutal. And, uh, you know, man, uh, but I, see, in my wo- in the world's eyes, I was very successful 'cause that block of land that I had, and then when I got, I'd sat it there. It was just sitting there. So then when I got sober and then started fighting on Fox Sports, I started to get some- Mm ... some purses and what.

And I, I remember, uh, I've always been a risk-taker. I love risk. It's the way God made me, man. But I remember doing some research. Well, my wife really done the work and said, "We can actually buy a house with that land." So I remember buying a house. I'm like, "Whoa." And then I remember another... I remember we had four houses, right?

I got this business. I've gone, 'cause in that first couple months, before I got that [01:04:00] job, uh, washing dishes, we, we had to get food vouchers. Mm-hmm. Like where there's not enough money to last till the next check, you know? So we've gone from four houses, the champ, from food voucher, like it was a fast. And it was like, we just bought another house, and I'm sitting there, and I, like got these pushbikes for the kids, et cetera.

And then my wife goes, and I, I remember just starting to think about what had happened in that fight 'cause I, I didn't tell anyone. I couldn't tell anyone. I didn't know- Yeah ... how to articulate what had happened. And, and literally she turns and goes, 'cause she had these annoying Christians hanging around her which were driving me crazy.

Very nice people, but very irritating. She goes, "Hey, they've invited us to this Easter- play thing. And I'm like, "It'll be a cheap night out for the kids." That was my, my thinking. So we go home, um, [01:05:00] go down there. There was a couple of other things that happened that day. I was in a police chase. I was go- it was just, it was, it was just anger was, was coming to the surface, you know?

And, um, uh, you know, you, it's easy to brush over that, I suppose. Yeah, police chase. Anyway, so we go... But I go, I, I remember walking in the door of this church, and I remember g- on the way there, I realized I actually didn't even know what Easter was about. Like, I knew- Yeah ... it was about eggs. Mm. You know, I, you know, like I remember walking in the, the front door of the church, like the foyer bit, and I just burst into tears thinking, "Oh my goodness."

I'm trying to hide and I'm thinking, "Who the... I hope nobody sees me that knows me." Like, in my head- Mm ... I'm a legend. I'm the champ. And I'm crying like a baby trying to find a dark spot to hide, you know? And then, then of course, the, the, the, it starts. And it was like, [01:06:00] I still don't know what the, what, but what, what happened that night in regards to the production, but what happened was God started to show me, uh, pictures of all the times He'd looked after me, how He'd saved me from, uh, from hanging me-self.

From, from, you know, that, that feeling of peace and love. Mm. He just, He was looking after me. When I was gonna glass that guy in the nightclub, when I was, you know, when I was getting chased in, in Thailand, when I was, when I, when I missed three weeks in, in Holland. Like, He just looked after me. Uh, and He was, He got me to this point.

And I'm like, "Oh my goodness." And I, and I remember- Towards the end, I kinda realized that, um... See, my parents love me to bits, okay? But there was, there was a time where I'd heard things that, you know, probably most people hear things you shouldn't hear. But I remember there was a time, 'cause my dad was in and out of jail a few times, and my, you know, [01:07:00] my mom was not meant, you know, I was n- I was an accident.

I was n- my mom was never meant to- Mm ... to get pregnant. And I remember there was a conversation about how they were, you know, people in the family who loved me, Mom was, they were trying to adopt me out. And

Yeah, she didn't, you know? And I remember the, uh, the, that play. I remember him coming to a, to a scripture where it said that, that God called you and knew you before time even began. That he had a plan and he had a purpose, and that he, he... And I heard he needed a Gavin Topp, so he made a Gavin Topp a bloke who could tough it out and go through all that other rubbish so others wouldn't have to.

Mm. And that's kind of... I'm okay. I always look after the underdog. I always-- That's just who I am. Mm. And, [01:08:00] and, and I, and, and I, I thought to myself I always knew God was with me. I just didn't know kind... Jesus was connected, I just didn't know. And, and so that's... And I remember them talking about who... I remember thinking, "Do you know what?

I'm actually not even game to try and do it my way anymore." Like, uh, like I said, I, I, I'd been in a car chase that day with the police. I'd, I'd, I'd been gonna bash a guy in the milk bar that day, 'cause I thought he'd said something to me. And I'm the champ. Like, I had everything the world that I thought would make you happy.

The real estate, the fam- and I was not happy. Mm. Like, I remember thinking, "I, I've done my best. I've tried my hardest. And man, the result is zero," you know? And I remember them talking about, "If you would like to give your life to Christ, [01:09:00] put your hand up." And I remember looking around, and my hand was up. I thought, "Fucking, who's gonna see me?"

And I pulled my hand down and thought, "Who's seen me? Like, this is embarrassing." But then I thought, "Well, what options do I have?" Like, I did my best, my way. And, and, and, and really, that was the, that was the start of, uh, the journey, really. That just got me to the starting post. So you, you had all this stuff, the success, you're the champion, everything's going.

But at the same time, there was nothing. I think there was something. You felt like, you felt like there was nothing. No, no, no. Yeah. I think there was something, but it was, uh, it was, it was ego. Yeah. It was pride. It felt real. Yeah. I, plenty of pats on the back. I had properties. I had cars. I had, you know, I buy a brand new...

I have, I'm on [01:10:00] TV. Everywhere I went, people said, "Hey." Mm. I, I had everything. It wasn't enough. Mm. It wasn't enough. It wasn't- Wasn't fulfilling Oh, was not fulfilling Yeah But, but that's the bi- I think the biggest thing was I thought to myself, "I can't keep this up." Mm. "I can't keep this pace up. I'm, I'm, I'm close to being cooked here."

You know what? I reckon there's a lot of people in that place right now, and people watching, listening to this right now, I think, in exactly that same place. Yeah. But they don't know how to face it. Yeah. They don't know what to do with it. Yeah. They feel like, "Well, I've got all this. I should be happy." Mm. "I should be fulfilled."

Yeah. "I should be... There should be something there." Yeah. What would you say to those people? Yeah. There's one name. His name is Jesus. He's the way, the truth, and the life. It says, "You confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, [01:11:00] you'll be saved." Mm. And, and, and for a bloke like I was, that w- like, they're the people I make fun of.

That's the... That would be my humor. That's... They're easy targets. Yeah. And, and it's, it's not... It's, like, I suppose, I, I suppose most of us have been exposed to religion. But I didn't know, like, I didn't know, like, this was a relationship. Mm. Uh, you know, and, and, and as, uh, as I've gone on, I've realized I... He come for me.

I didn't chase Him. I, I ran away from Him, but He chased me down. He'd come for me. Every, all those moments, He was there. He was waiting for me to say, "Hey." Even in, like, that, that Canada, Edmonton, in that freezing, brutal cold [01:12:00] Ca- the worst place in the world, uh, for me at that time. Like, the loneliest place.

Mm. He was there You know, you know, you, 'cause all, I mean, it's happened to me a few times. I, I, I remember one time fighting in, uh, for a world title eliminator in, in Berlin, Germany. And I remember, um, you know, you, you have s- crazy thoughts. Like, under pressure, remember the real guy comes . Mm. You hear that, you know, under.

Yeah. And I remember it's happened o- you know, over the years. Um, I fought for 18 years, you know, it happen- where, is you know people that end up with brain damage. You know, I know people that have passed a day after the fight with head injuries. Like, you know, uh, uh, the thought comes. I, you know, I remember being in that, in that spot in the dressing rooms waiting to

Or in the, [01:13:00] in, actually in the hotel before I went to the dressing rooms. I remember thinking, "Man, I could die." Like, this is at the highest level. Mm. Like, I win this fight, I fight ... It was a world title eliminator. The winner out of me and this guy, we fight for the world, we fight the best in the world. Like, this is, this is dangerous.

And I was thinking, I started thinking about my kids, my wife You know, like, but, but, but I remember, I remember that p- even that particular point. I remember a cornerman with me, he started to pray. He started to pray in tongues. He started to, to call out to, to the one who'd come after me many times. The one who's, uh, omnipresent.

You know, I remember the peace and love falling on me again. Mm. I remember that walk out, man. It's the best walk out I've ever had. In front of thousands of people. [01:14:00] Yeah, I remember, I remember sp- I remember it's in Germany. I'm, man, I'm, I'm, I'm just praying in tongues, walking down the, you know? Man, I don't know what the hell it was they thought I was talking about.

But, you know, hey, I'm a, I'm a, you know, what i- my identity is not in my performance. Mm. My identity is, is the one who made me, called me. I'm a son of the King. I'm not-- I am the son of Jack Top. You know? Nobody takes crap off anyone. But I'm also the son of the King. Mm. The one who made everything. So you now take that, well, you did for a little while, and you trained guys to get in the gym.

Yeah. What was it that, what would you say was probably three of the main things that you were actually able to help impart into those guys that got them to a new space? Yeah. I suppose, uh, you know, [01:15:00] because that, that t- that boxing program felt like a program for, like, 10, 11 years, and everyone does it for a different reason.

Some blokes sign up and don't even know. They, I remember, uh, I remember vividly a bloke saying, "I don't even know why I'm doing this." 'Cause remember the qualifier is that you'd never had a boxing match. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, and now I'm gonna, you're gonna fight at the casino. And by the way, I got all this layout back in the casino.

When you, when you're paying them a lot of money, they- Yeah ... they make allowances. So, um, you know, so it's different for each guy. Mm. So we start from a different place, you know? Everyone's, you know, we all start at week one, day one and week one, but we all had a different past history, you know? Some guys are there to get their families back.

Other guys get there because they wanna lose 10 kilos. Other guys are there because they got demons in them and they don't know how to deal with them. [01:16:00] You know, their anger issues. Or, and I'm talking about m- men that are successful in the world's eyes. Mm. That have all the bells and whistles. I'm not talking about the down and out.

Mm. You know? Um, so, so one thing that, that I suppose through that first period, well, I always love, the first couple of weeks are all about fitness, defense. Blokes go, "Man, I'm feeling amazing in front of the mirror. This is awesome," eh? Uh, and then normally what we would do, what I do is, is always, uh, about week two, start sorting out cornermen You know, blokes are gonna be in your corner.

Mm. They, and some of them they train with you. Normally there'd be a couple of guys. Three, three cornermen or four corn would look after maybe two fighters. So they sort of always had somebody. But you know, it was trained as a group, but you'd have- Mm-hmm ... a group within the group, you know? Um, so we'd always be building them up, pointing out their good stuff, you know.

Uh, and, and normally what would happen is, [01:17:00] um, eventually you gotta s- you gotta get the rubber to hit the road. Mm. You gotta get this stuff, does that actually work? So you start sparring. And the amount of guys that would have a reality check say, "Oh, I've just been hit." Well, what, what have you been training for?

You know, so there'd be a lot of blokes that would be, what I would say, living in a false economy- Mm ... in their mind, thinking they're something they weren't. Thinking t- yeah, a- and y- I mean, doing it for a long time, you get to hear it, where blokes in their 40s and 50s start talking about some grand final they, they won, the grand final and whatever.

And as it turns out, it was under 15s. But they're still s- hanging onto stories. Yeah, yeah. Stop cr- they stop being a warrior. Yeah. They stop doing things for the first time. They, they, they started to pursue comfort [01:18:00] rather than mission. How important is it for men to actually have that warrior inside of them to come out, to be, to be a real man- Yeah

to stand up. And obviously nowadays with this toxic masculinity and other things that's going on, people can take this the wrong way, but take it the right way if you're listening or watching this. Yeah. Because I think the more we have strong, well-adjusted men, the stronger our world and society's gonna be.

Because they actually are protectors. Yeah. They're warriors. They look after people. They help people. They don't, they don't diss people. How important is it to bring that out in men? Well, mate, I'm gonna say something, and this is probably gonna offend some people.

Toxic and mash- masculinity do not belong together. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Toc- there is no such thing as toxic masculinity. [01:19:00] There, either you got a, a masculine man or you've got a toxic man. Love it. You haven't ... You don't- That is so good ... all, all that toxic is, is just a man who is undeveloped. Mm. And looking to talk himself up, prove himself in, in a, in, in a way that's untested and unchallenged.

Mm. You know? Like, uh, I mean, you know, uh, probably many people have done it think, "Ah, buy a new red ute. Br- buy a brand new car. How good do I ... How, how cool am I?" And ute's gonna get dirty. Maybe even like me, you're gonna roll that ute. Yeah. Yeah, you know, like, that's not masculinity. No. That's just an undeveloped boy.

Mm. That's just a ... That's a, that's a male who's undeveloped, you know? But is he maybe in a m- uh, looks like a man, but he's really a boy. Yeah, yeah. You know? But, but when it comes to like, yeah, our, our society, [01:20:00] man, we- we- we- we lean on strong men. Strong in character, strong in, in all those, you know, strong in faith.

That's why I was able to, through that, those period, the, it was a four and a half year period we supported a women's shelter that were, were getting 100 women a year, plus children out of domestic violence situations. Wow. You know, we built six units for them. We ... And it was all donated by men. Mm. You know?

Men made a way. Man, there was like, there was some men that I introduced to that come through the program, said, "Man, these guys need a hand," you know? They would s- uh, donate some time each week. There was sometimes, normally monthly, we would take between 30, 40 men down there and just a, just sun up to sun down work and be.

Just, just do whatever had to be done. Yeah. Mm. So ... So what would you, what would you say [01:21:00] was a real man compared to a toxic man? Uh, well- I know you gave a bit of a definition there. Yeah, yeah, yeah Let's go a little bit further- Yeah ... into that. Well, I suppose a bloke who is performance-based is toxic. You know, you gotta be performing, you gotta be talking yourself up.

You gotta... I mean, it's easier. When you're being, uh, initiated and validated, you don't need to talk yourself up. You don't need to prove yourself. You, you know, y- the, the way... But the thing is, the only thing that can validate a man is another man, somebody who you look up to, whose integrity inspires you. Mm.

Whereas this, sometimes when we're boys, it's just who's popular. Mm. Some people, I mean, I, I, I'm probably gonna cop some flak for this, but this is what I see. I see men doing some breathing exercises in the bush and calling that [01:22:00] masculinity. Hey, good to breathe. Love the bush. But calling it masculinity, not masculinity.

I see other men, um, doing cold plunges. I love cold plunges. That's not masculinity. Uh, everyone should be doing them. But don't call it mascul- You know what I... Mm. Yeah ... Is that, is that clear? Yep, yep, yep. You know? You know, like what is a man? A man takes responsibility for his children, even when it's not comfortable.

You know? For, for me, and this is, this is one thing I, I, I believe, um, that will define a man, is by the oaths that he lives by. I talk about it in my Rite of Passage book, gavintopp.com. Check it out. So, so for me, this is what really impacted my early days, when I started to look at these rite of passage, when I started to get shown them.

That, you know, you, you, you're gonna live by your oaths, by your agreements you make with yourself. First oath I ever made was around alcohol. Not [01:23:00] any, not ever, no negotiation. Mm. Haven't had a drink from that day to this, 30-plus years. You know, I said to my wife, "Listen, it's, it's about the future now, not about the past.

I wanna marry you. So will you marry me?" She goes, "Yeah, of course," you know. I said, "But- It's till death Mm. There's no plan B. We're gonna w- whatever happens, we're gonna get through this, whatever, you know? It's till death. You gotta die to get out of this. She laughs, say, "I will raise you from the dead. Don't you dare try and die."

You know, so, so, I mean, one of, one of my oaths is to show my children that dreams can come true. Hence, I've gotta be living dreams. I've gotta be not always talking about it, I gotta be doing it. You know, I, I, one of... My wife's an amazing supporter of mine, the best. You know, one of my oaths that I created a few years back is that her dreams would come [01:24:00] true.

So she always wanted to spend some time overseas. So hence we, in '23, we, her heritage, her father was born in Malta, and so I said, "We're going to Malta. Let's go to Mal-" We, I, I go, I said, "For a season." It was over two years, it was a big season. But just to spend that time- Yeah ... living in a village, having an adventure, you know, living an adventurous life.

Mm-hmm. You know? Well, men le- I mean, women lead as well, but it, but if men don't step up and lead, man, really, that's how the families are gonna flourish. Mm. You know? And it's hard, and you can't do it on your own. The lone wolf thing, it, it's a fantasy. If you think you can make it on... You, man, I, I, I... This is what I do, right?

I'll go anywhere on the planet to get the right men in my life. That's why my mentor lives in Florida. Like, last year I went there three times. [01:25:00] Keep up skill, keep up skill, keep up skill. You know? He's the best man in the world I know for teaching me business from a bib- biblical base. So I found this is the best guy in the world.

I'm gonna make him my friend. Mm. I love that, and it's so important. I actually just did a reel this morning about who you got in your corner. Yeah. Because it's absolutely critical. Yeah, and that's probably one of the biggest things, like you said, one of the, those men going through that boxing program.

You learn... I mean, I, I learnt this in my early days a fighter, right? That your cornerman can see what you can't. Mm. 'Cause in a fight sometimes, like, you, you can't see. Like, it's happening so fast. Like, you're getting hit. I remember I had fights I went, "I'm sure there's three of them." But I remember that first fight, my, my cornerman when I really caught my attention, the guy goes, cornerman says, "Listen, Gav, punch straight."[01:26:00]

I didn't know I wasn't Yeah, right And I was copping a belting. He goes, "Punch straight. Get right in front of your face and punch straight." And of course, it turned the fight around. So I couldn't wait to get back to the corner and say, "Now what do I do?" Mm. You know? So that, that really helped me out, and particularly when that's what a lot of guys see go through the, you know, that Fight Like a Pro program, um, is that you gotta learn to trust this guy, man.

He can see what ... He's been there before. He's done it He can help you. That's awesome. Mate, we've, uh, I think gone over time a little bit, but hey- ... this is, that's, that's cool. It's fantastic. And what you've had to say is incredible. And when it comes to this sort of thing- Yeah ... I don't know of anyone better who, or more qualified to be able to talk about this- Yeah

than you. I really appreciate you coming in. No, no. Question we ask al- always at the end of the podcast- Yeah, yeah ... how do you create the life you want [01:27:00] and leave a des- a legacy that you're proud of? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mate, you want me to sh- keep this short? Yeah. What I do now is called The Man Alive Experience, and the first, uh, 20 weeks is getting a crystal clear vision of your purpose and the mission for your life.

Mm. Most men get about eight, 10 weeks in and go, "You know what? I've actually known what I've wanted to do my whole life. I just got talked out of it, or I made a mistake." Yeah. So, all right, uh, i- in short, man, uh, to be successful, know your purpose, develop yourself for that purpose, and that's where most men fall down.

They're undeveloped. They don't develop. They know what their purpose is, but they don't develop themselves. And then deploy yourself in that purpose, like a soldier's deployed into a mission. Mm. You know? So when you have the courage, and for me, I'll go through, there's a, there's a whole heap of teachings there step by step that actually you, you [01:28:00] know, 80% of the men go, "You know, how did I not see this?"

Yeah. And then when you can have the right men around you who actually deploy yourself in it, and even monetize your mission and your purpose, man, that- that's how you create a, a legacy that's a part of yours. You know, one of the reasons we went to Malta, M- took my wife to Malta, she got, her family have two properties there.

One's a- 430 years old. Great. Her father was born there 70 plus years ago. Her grandmother, who's passed, that I, that I, you know, knew when we were younger, she was born there. Her family still live there. Yeah, wow. In the middle of that house there's a well. I wanted to taste that water. Mm. They still, that's where their water source, they still, all these years- Wow

they drink that water. So I wanted my kids to drink that water. So, so, the, I mean, long, long answer, man, you know, legacy is happening right now. It's a question of are you conscious of what you're actually [01:29:00] creating? Mm. It's happening. Everyone's leaving a legacy, but is it l- are you leaving the one that you want?

That's such a good point. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And, and that's why, again, we spent those, like, two years in, in Europe in the middle of the Mediterranean, small island, uh, eight kilometers by five kilometers. On a clear day you could see Sicily 20, 20-odd miles away. You know, like- Beautiful. I wanted to spend that time with my family.

Mm. Let's get rid of the distractions. You know, seven kids, man. And anyone who's got kids, you know, you don't have them for long. Mm. So that's ... You, you know, either you don't ... Uh, I always say when it comes to your purpose, you either know your purpose and you're pursuing your purpose, or by default you end up pursuing somebody else's.

So it's probably the most important question you need to have an answer for, is what is my purpose? Yep. So true. Yeah. Um, wow. That [01:30:00] was wow. Um, I'll leave it there. Uh- Tell me ... you're gonna say something. I was, I was gonna say something. Something that I made a little while ago. If you go to gavintopp, double P, .com is the eight biggest mistakes successful men are making.

Nice. And every, I've never had anyone go through those, those, those, that teaching and got it all nailed. Yeah. Like, most of it unconsciously are making a couple of mistakes and you know, you know you've only gotta be one degree off today, and by the end of the week, you're seven degrees. The end of, uh- Mm

the y- the end of a decade, blokes go, "How the heck did I end up here?" Yeah, it's so true. So they say- It's so true ... gavintopp.com, man, go to those ... I, it's a, it's a gift. I mean, there's other things there, e-books. That's awesome. And it's funny, none of us, we think we've got it nailed sometimes, but none of us have.

None of us have. I know I haven't. Um, [01:31:00] that was my question, is how to ... So people can go there. How else can they find you, hook up with you, connect with you? Uh, there's a YouTube, Gavintopp, uh, YouTube channel. But, you know, gavinlancetopp, Instagram. But, uh, yeah, if you just go to gavintopp.com, man, grab that eight biggest mistakes or, or, or grab an

Uh, even I would suggest the first book I ever, uh, made was purely out of just to be able to help people, is that Rite of Passage for the Modern Man. Where I had guys, I, I wanted to help them but they couldn't come and do that 10-week program. Mm. So I made that short book. You read it in 40 minutes. I go through the seven pillars of Rite of Passage.

It, I would say, this is why I say, like, grab a mate and do it with him. It's a short book. Even there's even, I mean, there's all sorts of organizations that have got that book and taken you through those seven pillars, but everyone needs a, everyone needs it. If you've got a set of nuts, you need to know what these [01:32:00] pillars are.

Settles it. Gavin, thank you so much for coming in. Such, such a pleasure- Oh ... and your stories and your journey and the whole lot. Yeah. And you've rounded it up and, and ended on what a man actually is. Yeah. Yeah. Really appreciate that. Yeah. Thanks for coming on Tomorrow Is Not Today podcast. Bless you, man.

Amen. Thank you, mate. Ciao.